Michelle Comella | Redefining Success: Navigating Career Path Journeys

Michelle Comella sits down with⁠ Mosah Fernandez Goodman ⁠on this episode of Hiring Insights. Michelle is an attorney and certified professional coach working with AMLaw 25 firms, her current role is the Global Director of Career Services at McDermott Will & Emery, a program that she designed and launched in 2020. Prior to making the transition into coaching, Michelle was dedicated to practicing law, that is, until she realized that the responsibilities of a general counsel did not motivate her in the way she felt the right career should. With expertise from previous roles at Kirland and Ellis, and companies such as Charles Schwab and Fidelity, her broad legal experience make her an invaluable resource for career guidance. Topics discussed in this episode: 

Navigating Career Transitions: Michelle discusses the importance of understanding what one seeks in a career change, rather than only focusing on leaving a current role. She highlights the need to explore opportunities that fulfill new personal and professional aspirations.

Trends in Employment and Career Needs: Two prominent trends among professionals—employment gaps due to economic and personal reasons, and the increasing importance of cultural fit in career choices.

Networking and Personal Branding: Michelle emphasizes the value of networking and building a personal brand. She suggests using platforms like LinkedIn to showcase expertise, values, and professional interests, helping professionals remain connected and expand their career opportunities.

Approaching Networking in Job Searches: Networking can be intimidating and off-putting for some people. Subtle tactics to open the conversation to job searches without making a direct job request.

Using Social Media for Professional Networking: Present yourself authentically on LinkedIn.

Benefits of Leveraging Third Parties in Job Searches: Advantages of involving mentors, coaches, or talent advisors. These third parties can offer objective perspectives, help answer tough questions, and provide alternative interpretations to avoid negative assumptions during the job search process.

Handling Employment Gaps During Job Searches: Strategies for explaining resume gaps, especially during interviews.

• TRANSCRIPT

  [00:00:44] Mosah: Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Hiring Insights. Today's show will focus on a conversation with Michelle Comella, who has a really wide and broad reaching set of experiences in her career. After being an in -house practitioner and attorney, Michelle moved into supporting attorneys as a career coach and career advisor. She currently serves as Global Director of Career services for McDermott, Will and Emory and has held roles at firms such as Kirkland and Ellis and at companies such as Charles Schwab and a host of other financial services firms, including Fidelity Investments. Michelle, thanks so much for joining us today. Welcome to Hiring Insights.

  [00:01:36] Michelle: Thank you for the invitation. I'm looking forward to our conversation.

  [00:01:40] Mosah: So maybe you could start off by giving a little bit of background on who you are because while you are an attorney, you're so much more than that. You're an executive coach. You've got a lot of different irons in the fire. I was hoping you might be able to share a little bit about who you are and kind of how you got to your current role.

  [00:01:58] Michelle: Sure, so at present, and actually for the last three years, I am the global director of career services at McDermott, Will and Emery, which for those of you in the legal profession know that it's one of the top 25 law firms.

  I came to this role kind of a circuitous route, as you noted I'm an attorney, but I gave up the practice of law in December of 2018, having realized roughly a year before that, that the general counsel role was no longer the right one for me. And I knew that when the president of the company for which I was working launched into my office, super excited because he wanted to start offering REITs to our clients.

  And all I could think of was, I have zero desire to learn about REITs. I knew I was going to become a professional liability to myself and to the firm. Luckily, I was working with an executive coach myself and was just so curious about what it is she had done, how she got to be where she was at, that I thought, I might as well go to coach training.

  At a minimum, I'm going to learn about myself. And so I took my law degree and my coaching certification, started building up a private practice. Coaching attorneys and others when I got a tap on the shoulder from another big law firm to come in house, and I've been doing that ever since. [00:03:23] Mosah: Great and maybe you can share for our listeners just a little bit about you personally and some of the things that you do outside of work.

  Just let people know a little bit more about who Michelle is.

  [00:03:31] Michelle: Sure. I live in Chicago. For those of you in the area, I am in the West Lincoln Park neighborhood. I live with my 12 and a half year old dog, Bailey. She's a cockapoo. And despite her little legs, she and I still manage to walk about five miles every day, including 45 minutes in the morning.

  It's a great way to kind of kick off the day. Beyond spending time with her, I love to cook. And in fact, just moved into a new home so that I would have a much larger space for entertaining people over dinner.

  [00:04:04] Mosah: One of the questions that I have for you about your own career path is really how people evolve in their perceptions around goals over the course of their legal career. So how do, how do folks that you work with, maybe even drawing from your own experience, how do people view themselves over the course of their careers?

  Let me share some more insight into that with respect to goals.

  [00:04:26] Michelle: Well, what I have found in speaking with my clients, and of course, reflecting on my own career, is that often we fall into something. We fall into it because it's the first job that somebody offers us out of college. We fall into it because somebody recommends us for a position because they think we'll be great at it.

  And we continue along that career path because we have successes or because we get stuck doing that same thing and they're afraid to try something different. Um, some people come to a realization fairly early on that this is not the right path for them. It might be because they're trying to run from something.

  They might realize I don't like serving this particular type of client or doing this particular daily work. Other people, it might be kind of a slow boil when they suddenly realize I'm no longer passionate about this. I might have been at one time, but I really don't see a future in it over the long term.

  And so there's comes a point. I think everybody's career where that falling into something and going with the flow and taking that next promotion and pursuing that next step on our path gets to a point where we stop and say, Whoa. Wait a minute. What do I really want to do? And how do I move forward with that direction?

  That certainly wasn't the case for me, at least twice in my career. And I think it is often the case with the clients that I work with.

  [00:05:52] Mosah: And so what are, I guess, some of the quick learnings or common themes that you've seen as people navigate those career choices? You mentioned people sometimes run towards or run from different opportunities or cultures or industries or roles.

  What are some of the insights that you would share with folks that you see as sort of common themes in that?

  [00:06:14] Michelle: I encourage people to think not only about what it is that they don't want to do anymore, what do they want to let go of, but more importantly, what it is that they're seeking. Because ideally when they make a move, it's not to fix a current problem, but rather to create a new opportunity.

  It's seeing something that they're excited about that this next role might offer them that they're currently not getting where they're at. Sometimes it might just be a change in environment in the law sense. It might be private practice or in-house, in-house to government, in-house to education, whatever the case may be.

  But sometimes it might actually be an entire career change. Looking at me going from working in financial services, the first 15 years of my career to being a lawyer and then realizing, actually, no, I don't want to practice law. I would rather serve lawyers and others in a different capacity. It's really about what was I seeking in each step or what is my client seeking in each step?

  And what is the next progression that they want to make with their career?

  [00:07:22] Mosah: That's a perfect segue, actually. Tell us about your, your job at McDermott. What is it that you actually do? If someone hears career services or here's sort of in house coaching, what does that actually mean?

  [00:07:35] Michelle: Well, I think, unfortunately, a lot of times when somebody hears career services, they think, job placement.

  I mean, that was certainly the case when we were in law school or in undergrad. Career services helps you find a job. At McDermott, career services is so much more than that. The program was created to support our current attorneys, no matter where they may be in their careers with any professional goal they may have.

  And sometimes we know that those professional goals have a personal edge to them. So, for the younger attorneys that might be, am I really in the right practice group? How do I incorporate the feedback that I've received from the partners? How do I start setting some boundaries? So that I do have a life in addition to the private practice

  For some of the older folks that might be how do I get promoted to partner? Or, you know, do I even want to be promoted? And if not, what do I do? So, it's supporting our current attorneys in their growth, whatever that might look like to them. And then it's also supporting our alumni and what we call friends of the firm, people that partners want to see supported in their careers, often with the alumni and the friends of the firm it's they’re at a point of making a career transition and their career services in the traditional sense helping you find a job is what I do.

  [00:08:56] Mosah: Got it. That's great. And so not every employer, you know, we work with a lot of law firms or people coming from a lot of law firms has either the luxury or the commitment to depending on resources, the type of role and function that you play at McDermott, but I guess beyond having the role and beyond, you know, committing the resources and time and attention saying we value this, how does your work and how does the culture at McDermott sort of work to set you apart maybe on a national level?

  [00:09:29] Michelle: One of the things that stood out for me when I first joined McDermott is how people focused they are. And it's not mere lip service. The leadership here makes a concerted effort to really understand what individuals at this firm need in order to grow and to feel satisfied in their careers. They do that through engagement surveys and happiness surveys, which might seem a little routine, but they actually follow through with the feedback they gain from those surveys.

  They also are extremely transparent. We have monthly town halls with the various cohorts and sometimes global town halls with everybody at the firm. They share what's going on from a financial perspective with new initiatives. Case in point, when I joined, they were very public about sharing the fact that we have created a career services program.

  Michelle is the face of that program. She's here to talk to you about how she can be of support to you in your careers. So they're a very people focused firm. They're a very innovative firm. We've been nominated for and received a number of different awards in a lot of different areas. And I know that we are quickly moving up in the ranks because of a lot of the changes that the firm has instituted with respect to providing support to individuals and practice groups.

  [00:10:57] Mosah: That's key, not only for serving the folks that work at Your firm, but also attracting and retaining. I mean, it's culture building. What role do you think passion plays in people's career journey? And also passion, perhaps even from the firm's perspective. How do you harness that? How do you leverage it? Is it significant?

  And if so, how?

  [00:11:26] Michelle: My first reaction to the word passion is that it can sometimes be dangerous. And the reason I say that is a lot of people will walk around saying, I haven't found my passion. I'm not passionate about anything. This job doesn't align with my passion. We often won't figure out what we're passionate about unless we try something.

  So we, unless we're going outside of our box, our normal day to day trying, if we're not trying new things and speaking to people about what they do and really exploring and getting curious, we may never really know what we're passionate about. So, for those folks who are out there saying, I don't know, it's natural.

  Give yourself permission to explore a little bit for those who do or are lucky enough to know what their passion is. Then I think it drives us in those moments. Even when motivation may otherwise feel like it's lagging. If we can remind ourselves, this is important to us because…fill in the blank.

  We're more likely to find the time and the energy to continue to hone our skills and show up for whatever clients we may be serving.

  [00:12:36] Mosah: So for the folks who aren't at McDermott or for the folks who might not even be in a law firm, I guess, what are some of the trends you're hearing and seeing from the folks that you're serving today from your internal clients?

  Is there a particular theme, work life balance, diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives, comp, some combination because attorneys want it all, or other things? What are some of those trends that you're seeing as people come and talk to you?

  [00:13:05] Michelle: There's a couple of things that I'm noticing. More and more of the people with whom I speak have employment gaps.

  And I think this may be a natural outgrowth of the pandemic and the economic situation that we've been in over the last several years, whether it's quiet quitting or outright quitting, or people, unfortunately being let go as parts of reduction and workforce or companies, unfortunately not getting the funding they needed in there for closing their doors.

  There's a lot of folks who have company now in that unemployment space. I would encourage people not to think of it as some sort of badge of shame. You look back on a lot of folks resumes, maybe it's not as apparent because they've hid it, but there's generally going to be gaps. It's how you use that time and how you explain that time that will either cause problems in your interview process or prove to be kind of propelling or compelling reasons for people to talk to you.

  So are you trying to hide it? If so, people are going to ask, Well, what's going on? What really is going on? Or are you taking advantage of it and saying, great, this is an opportunity for me to explore something that I think I might be passionate about, or this is an opportunity to advance some of my education.

  And I'm not saying go back and get another degree necessarily, but there are certainly so many different webinars and seminars and conferences that you can go to in the time. So that's one. The other would be an increased focus really on ensuring that wherever people wind up, there is a cultural fit.

  People, they say, don't leave jobs because of the job itself, but because of the manager. And I think that's by extension because of the culture. And so making sure that they understand what values they want to see expressed in that new organization and asking some thoughtful questions that will get them to the truth behind the value statement that's published on any company's website.

  That's going to be critical in the interview process. But those are the two biggest trends is the gaps in the resumes that I'm, or the, you know, the employment history that I'm seeing. And then this desire to really make a move to an organization that has a great cultural fit for them.

  [00:15:20] Mosah: No, that's, that's tremendous insight.

  Thank you. And the employment gaps, I think you're right in our work with clients, we are seeing beyond the more traditional gaps in experience, whether it be the care for children or care for aging family members or changes in employment circumstance, or sometimes thrust upon people, as you said, through reductions in force, there was certainly a spike of that as a result of the pandemic.

  And the uncertainty that came from that in the economic climate, right? We never before have we seen such an acceleration drop in interest rates in such a short time period as well. So it made, as you, as you mentioned, for funding for businesses and a lot of startups in particular, a heightened environment of uncertainty.

  I think that's a really astute comment. Something we're seeing in our work with clients as well. If someone's not fortunate enough to have career services in house, what's some advice you might give? To those looking to either engage with a third party or help get their materials, if you will, buttoned up, resume, cover letter, linked in those items, the strategy, and then maybe even in their search.

  Do you recommend people use third parties? Do you recommend people leverage their network? Do you recommend they do it all? What's some insight you might offer to folks who aren't fortunate enough to have that as an internal resource?

  [00:16:41] Michelle: I think it's a yes and a yes. Yes. Um, network. Yes, leverage third parties beyond your network.

  Who those third parties may be will depend on admittedly your resources, the types of roles you're trying to pursue, the types of roles you've already held. Certainly there's individuals like yourself and myself. Yes, I work at McDermott, but I and others in my world are happy to coach people away from that environment.

  There are coaches who do nothing but that outside of a corporation or a law firm. There are also obviously, you know, resources to you at your undergrad and your graduate school. If you want alumni services and others who can provide you with access to job boards may be willing to give you some feedback on your resume may be willing to give you lists of alumni with them.

  You can network, networking ultimately will be very important to you. It helps you stay and feel connected and plugged in during the unemployment process and your search. It expands your horizons and it increases the number of opportunities you're likely to hear about.

  [00:17:53] Mosah: That's a perfect segue into the topic of networking.

  So maybe drawing from your own experience, or if you could give an example, perhaps of that rockstar client who is maybe not a serial networker, because that might potentially some drawbacks as well. How would you recommend or how have you seen it work? Well, as people work to build and cultivate their professional networks, what are some of the things you'd always advise people to do?

  [00:18:20] Michelle: Start thinking about your personal brand. In other words, what do you want people to associate you with? And it's not just your job title, because we know titles change depending on what organization you're working in or, you know, ultimately what career you want to pursue, but it's how you show up. And what information you're willing to share.

  So are you someone who's generous with your time? Are you someone who's particularly insightful in a particular area of study? Are you someone who has a lot of experience mentoring others? How do you want to be known and start leveraging tools like LinkedIn to make sure that you're enforcing that personal branding?

  Make sure your resume, your profile statement on LinkedIn, the comments and the articles you post are all related to that. That might sound a little calculated, but again, if this is who you are and how you want to show up in the world, my suspicion is anything you craft is going to sound true and honest, and you're probably going to enjoy doing it. It's not going to seem like work. So leverage those tools.

  The folks who, in my experience, find jobs quickly are those who are leveraging their network. And I often give people homework when they come to me and say, I'm starting a search. I've never done this before. It's been a while, whatever the case may be.

  And that homework assignment is sit down with Excel. Write out a list of all the people that you know, and don't limit it to just those people in your career. Think about people from school, undergrad, graduate, neighbors, family members, people you met at social events. And then later, after you feel like you've hit a wall and you have nobody else to write down on this list, go back and, because you're using Excel, put a number next to their name.

  Number one, I can go to them and say I'm looking for a job, and they want to help. They just need a homework assignment from you. Number two are those people, you're not sure they can be helpful. But maybe you just need to have a conversation with them. You might not say I'm looking for a job, but it's an opportunity to say, you know, it's been a while since we touched base curious what's going on in your world.

  And there are further ways to splice that list, but it's a way of being thoughtful and moving forward with some type of schedule for lack of a better word.

  [00:20:44] Mosah: Yeah, no, absolutely. I'm sure you do something somewhat similar to this, maybe using different terms, but we take the proverbial list and categorize it by the type of influence that that person can have.

  Because you're right. Really, you're creating a list. But ultimately, LinkedIn, sure the wireframes would show this. It's basically a spider web, right? It goes out from your connections and their connections and first, second, and third. And that's fairly illustrative of the way that human beings interact outside of an online platform.

  So what we will often encourage our clients to do is to think about it as who are the people, and these are concentric circles in some instances, you know, who are the people who know you really well. And as you said, are your number ones who you can call up and say, Hey, Michelle, my role is not working out.

  Can you help me and talk to me? And that may be your best friend, it may be a family member, it may be someone who's a confident at work. And the second grouping would be the people who are the super connectors, the people who are always just, hey, Michelle, great, you need to talk to these other 10 people, regardless of whether or not they know you're looking for a search, but it's just instinctual that they have to connect.

  They can't leave a call without writing two emails while you're on that call to connect you to someone else. And then the third grouping of folks that we typically look at are, and again, there's overlap here. And you always want to start with some of the overlap would be the third grouping is it's a little bit of a corny term, but kind of the power brokers, right?

  The people who's called to someone else is a real driver. And most of us have a few of those in our networks, particularly attorneys at this point in their career, when they're looking to move from one role to another, at least know someone who can do that. And as you think about the intersection of those, there are different strategies.

  Again, I'm sure coaches will differ on techniques and strategies and tactics to sort of work that list in a way that's thoughtful and not at all off putting for those folks.

  [00:22:39] Michelle: So you raise an interesting point to about not being off putting because sometimes people hear the word networking and they immediately get anxious.

  Everybody has a slightly different understanding of what networking means. And so having a conversation in your case with your clients and my or my clients, it's how do you perceive networking? Where do you have concerns? And how are you thinking about the group of people to whom you want to reach out?

  [00:23:08] Mosah: Just a suggestion for some of the listeners, but one, one tactic we'll deploy with folks is as they're thinking about their network and bringing up the topic of a job search may for any number of reasons be off putting to either side. Either I don't want to announce or seem like I need a new role and similarly, I don't want to force someone into a situation where they have to talk about helping me find a job.

  Um, one thing that we found helpful to sort of ease into that is to say, I'm contemplating, obviously, a concept of career has to be somewhere in the conversation you can't be talking about your cockapoo and then switch immediately, you know, to this topic.  But if, and as I go through my job search, I was, or if and as I contemplate, uh, responding to this inquiry that I got, or I'm just starting to think about what might be next, would you be willing to serve as a reference for me if that ever came up?

  And that's a very gentle way to not only compliment the person with whom you're speaking to, but also to broach the conversation and we've had so many clients who just use that as a gateway to enter into that conversation. And folks end up saying, I'd had no idea you're looking or I'd love to help you or gee, I can't, but here's, here's one of those super connectors who could be helpful.

  And it's always a way to compliment people without throwing your current employer into the bus or without looking for something so blatantly. So there are a lot of ways to do that, but style and approach really does matter.

  [00:24:40] Michelle: Well, that's a fantastic opportunity because like you said, it's an easy way for somebody to jump in then and say, well, if you're thinking about making a move, maybe you should look at this job.

  I didn't even know you were looking, but it seems like it would be perfect for you.

  [00:24:56] Mosah: So let's talk for a second about social media. You know, I have, I have folks who we work with who are 100 percent engaged in social media, and that's the primary, if not only source of their networking. And we have folks who. Do nothing on LinkedIn or on other forms of social media, other platforms. We tend to think LinkedIn is the best or most active.

  How do you think folks should be utilizing? Is it a healthy balance? Is it dependent on the situation? What are your thoughts about utilizing social and your networking?

  [00:25:30] Michelle: Ultimately, I think it needs to be true to that individual. So if they're not comfortable for whatever reason using LinkedIn or another social media platform now may not be the time to try to push the envelope and do something that's outside that zone, if they're already playing around on it, there's certainly opportunities for them to up their game as they get into a job search.

  Um, that aren't going to set up alarm bells of curiosity to anybody at their current employer is like, wow, why did so and so suddenly start popping up in my feed all the time? So I think depends on savvy comfort level and other things, you know, at one extreme end, I actually had a former client of mine hire somebody to start posting things on LinkedIn on her behalf, and they were totally random articles, none of which seemed to have an undertone of her brand or her specialty area. And one day, it did in fact, blow back on her because somebody said, hey, you know, that was a really great article and made some more detailed reference to it.

  And she herself had never even read the article. So, you know, that's something people need to be cautious of is. Are they posting on LinkedIn in a way that is sincere to them? Does it work? Now, if you don't even have a LinkedIn profile, I think that's a bit of a problem. Nowadays, that's the first place people are gonna look to see.

  Who are you? Who do you know? Do I know anybody else in your world? What have you been up to? And so if you're launching a search, in addition to Polishing up your resume, you really should be making sure you're creating a LinkedIn profile if you don't have one and make sure you include a picture so people know who you are.

  [00:27:14] Mosah: I once started working with someone who had Darth Vader as their photo and pretty senior level attorney and they're listening, we've now changed that. The other, I guess, question out there is consistency across social media platforms. Um, when we talk to clients about servicing them and their social media needs, you know, sometimes people ask, well, beyond LinkedIn, what is it?

  And our response 99 percent of the time is that it's really about showing up in a way that you're okay with people knowing what you are presenting on other platforms. It's not so much harnessing those other platforms, but I'm wondering if you don't have a horror story or a nightmare story about someone who might've, uh, shown too much or shown the wrong thing, perhaps on other platforms.

  And I'm sure we've all heard those stories.

  [00:28:05] Michelle: Yeah. No, the first thing that came to mind, actually, it's an unfortunate situation. A colleague here at McDermott and I, at one point had hired somebody to come to work for us. And unfortunately it didn't work out. And after the fact, we did a little bit more Googling into this individual and found some photos and other things on a different website, not on LinkedIn that had we seen them ahead of time, we probably would have thought twice about bringing this person on board.

  Some employers are really great about doing that Google search and diving deep into all things. Facebook, Instagram, Pinterest, et cetera. Others like myself looked after the fact and wished I had known ahead of time. So you do want to be careful about what you're putting out there right now. Certainly in our political environment.

  You need to think about when you're sharing an opinion about something, whether it's a world event or a social event. If you're out there in the, the job market, there's a good possibility somebody's gonna see that. And so stop and think. Is that the tone? Is that the brand you want?

  [00:29:25] Mosah: I guess if you had to sum up in just a few quick bullets, not keeping you to just one word here, how would you summarize your advice for job seekers? If you're an attorney or maybe you're an executive just writ large looking for your next opportunity, what does Michelle say you need to be doing?

  [00:29:43] Michelle: Go into your search with an open mind. And by that, I mean, don't immediately narrow your search to I want this job title in this particular type of company doing these types of things. Because when you start your search with such a narrow focus, you're likely going to miss out on hearing about a lot of other opportunities that ultimately might have been of interest to you.

  So keep your options open, network, hear how people are perceiving you and what opportunities they're showing you because they may actually turn you on again to something that you might not be thinking of. So network, be open, be curious, have the conversations.

  [00:30:32] Mosah: And so other than being closed minded, what, maybe what's the flip of that?

  What shouldn't people do? What are some of the things without posting the wrong thing online? What, what are some of the things that you'd caution people to steer away from?

  [00:30:46] Michelle: Don't send out broadcast emails to your network and assume that those are going to work. I myself made that mistake probably 15 years or so ago and had a very senior partner in my network pull me aside or literally not literally, but via email saying if you have a specific ask ask it, don't send out a broadcast email.

  [00:31:10] Mosah: Make it easy for people to help you, right?

  [00:31:13] Michelle: People want to help. So come go to them with a homework assignment. Hey, I see, you know, somebody at this company for which I will be interviewing. Could you introduce me so that I can get a little bit of information in advance of that conversation?

  Hey, you and I worked together 5 years ago, I'd love it if you could look at my resume, because I want to make sure I'm accurately representing some of the things that we worked on, or maybe I'm missing something. Go to them with an assignment. They're happy to respond and they may even come up with other things that they want to do as a result.

  [00:31:43] Mosah: Final thoughts for our listeners, anything you want people to take away that we didn't cover today, Michelle?

  [00:31:50] Michelle: I actually want to circle back on your question about whether it makes sense to work with a third party. There's definitely opportunities there, whether it's a mentor of yours, whether it's a coach that you hire, whether it's a recruiter or a talent advisor, take advantage of that because they're going to bring some objectivity.

  They're going to likely have some alternative perspectives on how you're showing up what you're capable of doing where you might take your career next. And those individuals, like you said before, might be a connector into additional information and resources. So you don't have to go into a job search alone leverage your network leverage those 3rd parties.

  And just be open, see where the ride might take you.

  [00:32:40] Mosah: Michelle, as you think about third party resources that someone can can use as as they undergo a job search, whether it be just the exploration stages of what someone wants to do or actually how to execute it, everyone has those in their network. But I guess what would be your your thought if someone came to you and said, should I hire someone to help me with my search?

  Or should I hire someone to help me figure these different components out? How do you counsel people on that? Because not everyone's fortunate enough to have an announced resource like you and at the level that you’re at.

  [00:33:11] Michelle: There's certainly a benefit to working with a third party, whether that third party is a mentor or somebody you hire, like a coach or a talent advisor.

  The reason I say there's a benefit is that individual is coming to you with an objective opinion about who you are, how you're showing up, what are your opportunities in the marketplace. They are likely able to offer you alternative perspectives. So, for instance, I'm sure that you get the question. Why aren't I hearing back for them?

  Or they said that they would get back to me on Tuesday and I haven't heard from them since. It's easy to go down the rabbit hole. They must not like me. Maybe, um, they've hired somebody else already. A coach or a talent advisor is going to be able to give you other perspectives on how true that is or not.

  [00:34:06] Mosah: Absolutely. And that's true also when it comes to how to manage an interview and questions around, you know, the pandemic created a gap in my resume, or I had to care for an aging family member, or I had, you know, had a newborn and any of those sort of gaps. So how do you think about navigating those kinds of questions and maybe the value of the third party plays in those scenarios?

  [00:34:28] Michelle: There’s probably two ways to approach it. The third party may remind you of some information and resources that are available. Great example, LinkedIn now offers the ability to go on to your profile and explain away that gap. Are you taking classes? Are you caring for a child? Did you yourself have a medical issue?

  Are you lucky enough to be traveling around the world? Whatever the case may be, but what a coach could do or a talent advisor can do is help you prepare and rehearse an answer. And I don't mean rehearse so that you sound robotic, but rather rehearse so that you feel confident when somebody says, I notice that you 6 months or why did you it seems leave that company 2 years ago and you're now looking for another job.

  What I typically advise in those situations is think about what you gained from that most recent experience. I am grateful for the opportunity that I had to work at XYZ company. I learned this or I did that. So think about a present positive response to why you worked at the entity that you did briefly touch on.

  Unfortunately, things did not work out for whatever reason, you know, either there was a reduction in force or they suddenly moved to the headquarters and expected you to move with it. Whatever the case may be, but state it as a fact and then talk about a little bit about your past. And about what you learned from this current experience as well that you want to put to work in the current role, because you're going to get them off topic.

  You're going to stop them asking about that gap and you're going to get them thinking about how you could be a really great addition to their team by saying, I learned this. I did that. I'm looking forward to putting it to work and roll like the one for which I'm interviewing now.

  [00:36:27] Mosah: Thanks so much Michelle. It’s been a pleasure speaking with you today and gaining some of your insights into your work with clients and also into your professional history.Description text goes here

Lisa Lang | Connecting the Dots: Navigating Career Growth, Building Relationships, Harnessing Social Media

Lisa Lang⁠ joins ⁠Mosah Fernandez Goodman⁠ on this episode of⁠ Hiring Insights ⁠to discuss her diverse legal background, career advancement, relationship building, and the benefits of utilizing social media.  Lisa is the Vice President and General Counsel at Ohio Northern University, her varied background spans private practice, nonprofit, academia, and six years in the United States Army, first as a legal specialist and then as a legal non-commissioned officer. Lisa is an author and passionate about building community and being a resource as she shares her journey and experiences in the legal world. The topics discussed in this episode:

•  “You can’t connect the dots looking forward, you always have to connect them looking backward.”  Steve Jobs

• Don’t be so fixated on a specific goal, that you lose sight of opportunities that may exist right in front of you.

• The relationships that you build and develop are key to not only doing good work and having trust, but also for advancement and opening up opportunities.    

• How do you develop a personal brand, a reputation and a persona outside of your organization?

• Opportunities that LinkedIn and social media can open up beyond finding a new role.

• If you’re utilizing LinkedIn, it’s not as much about the content you're posting, but the relationships that can be built from commenting and engaging with others.

• When building relationships, give without expecting anything in return.

• Career advancement isn’t always a straight climb up in title and pay, consider lateral moves that will provide experience for the long-term strategy.

• Transcript

  Mosah: [00:00:47] Lisa, thanks so much for joining us today. Really appreciate having you on the show and really thrilled that you’re here. Welcome to Hiring Insights. Let’s start out and just share a little bit about your career path and who you are as a person. Maybe just give us some background as to who you are for the folks who don’t already know.

  Lisa: [00:01:07] Yeah. So, I am currently serving as Vice President and General Counsel at the University Ohio, Northern University. I live in a village of 5,300 people that’s centrally located in the middle of absolutely nowhere. And I spend my days hiking and kayaking when I am not at work and prior to my work today as a university general counsel, I did everything from serve in the United States military as a paralegal to be a civilian paralegal to an associate at an law firm to work for a regulatory entity to where I am today, which is at a university.

  Mosah: [00:01:47] Thanks so much, Lisa. I'm looking forward to shedding some more light and gaining some insight into those various positions. And you've got a really interesting background. You've got military. You've got legal. You've got this persona online as well. I know that's not maybe a thing in a category but tell us a little bit about you personally and kind of how you got to where you are.

  Lisa: [00:02:07] Yeah, you know, whenever I talk to anybody about my personal career journey, I always talk about the Steve Jobs quote that you can't connect the dots looking forward, you always have to connect them looking backward.

  And the reason I feel like that quote really encapsulates my career path is I made a lot of choices along the way that didn't always make sense to me or others, but I don't think that I would be where I am today had I done anything differently than what I did do. And like you said, you know, my background is, is really varied and diverse.

  I started school wanting to be a lawyer, but then thinking teaching was a better fit. I went through college to do that. And then at the last minute, I decided that's not what I wanted to do and I thought being a lawyer might, but I also knew and understand the kind of work that it would take to put in to do that.

  And the thought occurred to me that maybe I would try something that was related to the legal field, but not being a lawyer to help me decide whether I wanted to do that. And I started taking some paralegal classes at night after having graduated with a bachelor's degree in English. And one night a recruiter came in from the U S Army and the recruiter had indicated that they were looking for what they were calling a quote a higher caliber enlisted soldier, and so they were trying to find people who had some paralegal classes or experience to be a military paralegal.

  So, my first foray into the legal field was not as a lawyer, it was a paralegal, and it wasn't a civilian paralegal, it was a military paralegal, and I spent six years in the military in that role.

  Mosah: [00:04:00] So we've worked with a lot of people say in the JAG core, I can't say that I've worked with someone who's come through that background that you have and, and not just because of the ascension that you sort of have experienced, but you've also, I mean, you've worked in private practice, you've worked as a GC for a large nonprofit and, you know, in an academic setting. Looking backwards now, what is that connect the dot linkage?

  Lisa: [00:04:25] Yeah. Well, and you know, what's so funny is that I feel like all of these different experiences I've had, like I said, have prepared me for the role that I have today. And so having been in the military, for example, helped teach me some of those, I hate using the phrase soft skills, but I don't know what else to use.

  I learned resiliency, grit, self-determination, the ability to teach myself. I learned leadership. So, there's a lot of things that I did while I was in the military that helped prepare me for the next role. And, um, the next role for me was going to school at night and then working full time during the day and learning how to juggle that and be able to do those things.

  Those are all the kinds of things that I need to know how to do in my daily work today. I need to be able to sit down and know what it is I have before me. And I have to prioritize because I’m, but one person and I can only get so much done in one day. So, you know, each phase of my life and each phase of my career has helped prepare me for the next.

  Because I was working as a civilian paralegal, when I went to school at night, it helped me understand the law and what lawyers do at a very basic operational level so that when I transitioned in the same law firm to be an associate attorney, I had a better understanding of what it was that I was doing. So, for example, when I was a paralegal going to school at night, what was really cool for me is we would do removal papers, for instance, where you remove a case from state court to federal court.

  And I got to actually do the pleadings to do it. Then I was in class learning about what it was and why you do it. And so, by the time I was an associate and attorney, I understood how to do it, why to do it, and I was pretty, pretty good at doing it. So, I moved from one phase of my career to another phase. And that's just one example of how I've learned how to do not just the thing, but all the things that surround the thing.

  And it makes me understand what I do and why I do it better. And I think as a GC, we talk about how it's important to be a strategic partner. And we need to know and understand the operations of our business. And I feel like because I came up as a paralegal, then I was an associate attorney, and then I worked for the attorney general's office, and then I worked for the Kentucky Department of Education, which was a regulatory body, I learned all of these different entities that I interact with on a daily base basis now, so I think I'm a better strategic partner as a general counsel in an education environment because I have done litigation for an educational department, that I've worked for an educational department regulating educational entities like the one I work for.

  So, it's just all of these experiences when you take them all together. I really think it gives me the ability to have a perspective that very few other people have who are in my role.

  Mosah: [00:07:38] Yeah, that's great, Lisa. So, one of the things, you know, we're often contacted by folks who are in a law firm environment looking to go in-house.

  Some folks who are in-house are looking to make a move from, say, a corporation to a more of a non-profit setting. But you made an interesting move in going from being in private practice to working at a governmental entity, and then you've sort of stayed in education in this non-profit world. Can you give us a little insight into what that's like and what drives that kind of decision and maybe what the experience is like?

  While, it's not unique in that you're the only one doing it. It's certainly not the most common track for a lot of folks, but I'd like to open people's eyes up to those types of opportunities. So could you share a little bit more about the outside counsel to large nonprofit legal work?

  Lisa: [00:08:25] Yeah, so you know, it's what's so funny I think what the mistakes some people make is they are so fixated on a specific goal, that they lose sight of opportunities that may exist right before their eyes.

  And so I never set out to do what I'm doing now. I don't want to say it happened by accident, but to some extent it happened by chance and it just happened to be a whole series of career moves that it was opportunity that just showed itself because I was doing what I was doing.

  So when I moved from private practice into the attorney general's office. And just to show how the trajectory can happen in unexpected ways, when I moved from private practice to the Attorney General's office, the Attorney General's office, at least in Kentucky, functions just like a law firm for governmental agencies.

  So my job when I was at the Attorney General's office was to represent in litigation, governmental entities. And what I did when I worked for the Kentucky Department of Education as a client, when they were my client is I learned about what it was that they did. And I learned forward and backward. It wasn't just about defending the Kentucky Department of Education in litigation.

  It was me understanding what they did, why they did it, how they did it and what they wanted as a result of the litigation. And so because I developed that deep and close relationship with them, at some point they decided that they wanted to ask the attorney general for a waiver. And they did not want to have the attorney general's office provide the legal representation anymore they wanted to bring their own in-house counsel.

  And when they called me to let me know that that had been the decision, you know, at my initial response was, was disappointment because I really had gotten to the point where that was almost all the cases I was handling was just for this one agency. And so I was, I was sad to see them go, but the reason the HR director called me was to let me know that they had created the position that they wanted me to apply for. It was almost like with tailor-made for me.

  So I didn't go seek it. I got it because I built a relationship with this one client and got to the point where this client would come to the AG's office and say, I want Lisa Lang to handle all my cases. So I went there because of that.

  Mosah: [00:11:00] So I guess the two themes I'm picking up on as far as advice for those in transition are really sort of roll up your sleeves and understand the inner workings of a particular sector or a particular company and make sure you have as much context as you can. And then the relationships that you build and develop are key to not only doing good work and having that trust but also in terms of advancing and opening up new opportunities. I don't know if that's a fair summation or a paraphrasing of what you've been sort of shedding light on But those are two of the factors that I’ve noted.

  Lisa: [00:11:38] Yeah, that's absolutely accurate. And you know and the thing is I think that because I work so closely with the Kentucky Department of Education I almost I think they got a preview of who I was or would be as an assistant general counsel because I knew them back and forth. The people that worked there trusted me.

  So if I had to present them for deposition, a lot of people are apprehensive by a lawyer, especially like an outside counsel. But if you start working with them and understanding them and you build that relationship and that trust That was really what helped facilitate my movement from the Attorney General's office, which was essentially an outside counsel setting into the Kentucky Department of Education.

  And I also think my background, because I started out, I went to school, I spent four years learning to be a special education teacher. So I also had an understanding to some level of what the people with whom I was working, what they did on an operational level in a way that the other attorneys in the Attorney General's office did not have.

  Mosah: [00:12:42] No, I think that's great. Thanks for that very, uh, impassioned and detailed look at what it takes to be successful. So, no, I appreciate that so much.

  So, let's talk a little bit more about some of the things that you do outside of your normal 9 to 5, if there is a 9 to 5 day in your life. You have a blog, you have a whole other online persona, and while we'll talk a little bit about social media and its usage in career management and navigating job searches, tell us a little bit, it's called Why This, Not That, um, tell us a little bit about Why This, Not That and its sort of purpose.

  Lisa: [00:13:27] You know, when it really began, uh, I started using LinkedIn prior to Covid, probably in 2019, I started using it for the purpose of learning from other lawyers about things, um, related to in-house counsel. There was not a lot back in 2019, but, but there was some, and it was beginning to grow. It wasn't until Covid when I really started to use LinkedIn and view LinkedIn in a very different way.

  And part of the reason I did that was because with COVID you know, I was working in my university by myself. My whole staff, my whole team was at home and we were constantly navigating changes in the legal environment in terms of executive orders and what it meant for our school and what it is that we needed to do operationally.

  And I was turning to LinkedIn to try and find resources with other people who were in the role that I was in to see what they were doing and how they were handling it. I didn't find a lot of resources. So what started to happen was I started to do a lot of blogging and writing about what it was that I was experiencing and what it was that I was learning from that experience.

  And part of the reason I wanted to do it is because I feel like the practice of law is practice. And part of the problem is you're always afraid of making a mistake or having a misstep. And so part of what I wanted to do is be able to share my missteps with other people for two purposes. One, maybe to help them avoid having a misstep or two, maybe letting them know sometimes you do make a mistake. Sometimes you do have a misstep, but it's not fatal.

  So part of what I wanted to be able to do was to provide a resource that I did not have myself in navigating the work that I did. And maybe part of it comes from the fact that I do come from a family of teachers and I was trained to be a teacher.

  So I think that while that's not what I did as a profession, it's still very much part of who I am and what I do. And so I do a lot of mentoring and I do blog and I write things about, okay, yeah, with this, do this, do not do this. And sometimes it was because, because I did it and I'm telling you it ain't gonna work.

  Mosah: [00:16:04] So for the, I guess just maybe succinctly for a lot of our listeners, they're either looking to bring in talent or a decent number of the folks that listen to the show are concerned with managing their own careers, navigating to the next step. What are some of the suggestions, I guess, maybe just a few words, if you would, on tips and tricks people should use in advancing their career.

  We talked a lot about the relationship building and context. Um, it sounds like here, it's also a degree of vulnerability and willingness to learn, but what are some of the tips and tricks people might use to advance during their career in your opinion?

  Lisa: [00:16:41] I feel like lawyers in general need to start embracing a different mindset.

  They need to utilize and leverage social media. I think we have been trained to see it as something that has a lot of drawbacks, and it's not something professional lawyers do. And I think lawyers can do it and should do it, and there's an ethical way to do it. I also think, especially if you're an in-house lawyer, I think we think about building a brand for our company, but we don't think about building a brand for ourselves.

  And it's about developing a reputation. And a persona outside of your, of your organization. And what I've been so fortunate within the two universities that I have worked in is that my, both my presidents have been very supportive in what I've done in terms of building my own personal brand. Because I think that you can build a brand and that brand can not only help you and help you in terms of your career and your reputation.

  But if you have a good reputation and, and a very strong brand, it also reflects favorably on your employer. And it's nice to find employers who view it that way and not all employers do.

  Mosah: [00:17:58] Couldn't agree with you more that that's really well said so you mentioned LinkedIn, you know, we provide job search services for candidates What are some of the things that you would recommend?

  Services or offerings in addition to LinkedIn, people utilize or consider availing themselves of as they're navigating their career.

  Lisa: [00:18:18] Well, I do think a lot of it has to do with relationship building building a network of people in the area that you're interested in, and then talking with them about what it is that you want.

  And I'll give you an example. I mean, it is somewhat LinkedIn, but if you're interested, for instance, in being a contract professional or procurement, Laura Frederick, how to contract, she is prolific on LinkedIn, and she also has a network of people that, that hire people in those roles. And she has a online job board where people can apply for positions.

  And it's going to conferences and talking to other people in your field. There's a lot of things that you can do just through that relationship building and joining organizations that are filled with people who do what you want to do and who you can associate with, and they can help make connections for you to land that next role.

  Mosah: [00:19:24] So let's talk a little bit about something you've just touched on already is networking and social media. So., I remember seeing you start to post roughly around the timeline that you outlined earlier and you started showing up in my feed because about 60 percent of our clients, 67 percent of our clients are attorneys.

  I myself am an attorney and the content just made sense to the LinkedIn algorithm, right? So, boom, Lisa Lang every day, right? So, so Lisa, I know you better than, than even just our, our few conversations. But I guess how has that really opened up opportunities for you? I mean, not necessarily, although perhaps job opportunities, how has LinkedIn and the work that you do, maybe you start with just generally how you utilize it, but how has that been beneficial for you?

  Lisa: [00:20:19] You know, what's, what's funny for me as I would not credit LinkedIn for any job that I've ever gotten. But what I can credit LinkedIn for doing is opening the door to doing something that I'm really, really, really enjoying that I don't think I would have otherwise been afforded the opportunity to do.

  For an example, there was a time when I would never have imagined somebody ask me to do a CLE presentation, I would never have seen anybody asking me to write articles. I would never see anybody asking me to be the lead moderator for an entire conference. So there, there are things that I am doing now that I in a million years would never have pictured myself doing.

  And I'm really, really enjoying that. And it's supplementing what I do now. And it's also reigniting other passions in me than just the practice of law. I like writing about the law. I like teaching the law. I enjoy the moderation duties that I've had. Most recently, I went for Marcus Evans summit, I went to Amelia Island, and I was the lead moderator.

  I introduced the speakers. I did two or three-panel discussions that I led. And I also did a fireside chat with another lawyer. It was just a lot of fun. I enjoyed it a lot. And I don't know what it's going to necessarily do in terms of like my career or a job, but it was really, really fun and it helped bring out in me an excitement and a passion for what it is that I do beyond just what I do on a day to day basis.

  Mosah: [00:22:16] So for someone who's looking to utilize LinkedIn, it sounds like it's basically made the world smaller for you, right? In a good way. It's made it more intimate. So, for those who might be looking for a new role or for those who are trying to cultivate a network with the hopes of building good relationships, certainly, but also looking to potentially advance themselves in new ways.

  What are some of the quick, few word answer, but maybe several bullets to the question, what should someone be doing on LinkedIn? What, like, just practically, in your opinion, in your experience as someone who's been using it now for a number of years, effectively, what are just some of those very obvious things that people should be doing, but maybe not obvious to folks who don't use it as well as you do.

  Lisa: [00:23:01] Yeah, you don't have to post every day. It's about building authentic relationships and being able to connect with people who share similar interests with you. So, what I did to begin, I actually wrote a chapter in a book where I talked about, you know, starting out as a lurker. And what I mean by that is I would read things, but I would never comment and I would never react.

  I wouldn't do anything. I would just come in, I would read it, and I would go on. And then after a while, I felt bold. And I still remember one of my first comments I made was, if you know Alex Su, to some is a little bit controversial, former lawyer, now tech, I don't know, evangelist.

  Mosah: [00:23:47] He was a guest on our show. Yeah, I know Alex.

  Lisa: [00:23:51] Yeah. So, so Alex posted something about some experience that he had with big law. And for whatever reason, that particular post got me really fired up. And I just, I don't know what came over me that day, but I, my comment was maybe almost as big as his post.

  So, I commented on his post and he reached out to me later and said, oh my gosh, I think that I got more reactions to your comment than I did for my entire post. So, he and I started having offline conversations and I will say I encouraged him to do TikTok. Let me just say that.

  Mosah: [00:24:30] You're taking credit for that one?

  Lisa: [00:24:32] I'll take credit for that. You tell Alex I think I helped him launch him into TikTok.

  Mosah: [00:24:36] That’s actually going to be the headline of this episode. Yeah. Lisa Lang Stewart's Alex's social media prowess.

  Lisa: [00:24:43] Yeah, that's right. That's right. But he was really great for me because he said, Lisa, you have something to say and there are people who wanna hear you say it.

  So, he was really encouraging. But like I said, it's not about doing the post, it's, it's more about the fact that I commented and then started building a relationship with him. And I started commenting more frequently on what it was he was posting because it really resonated with me. So, I think that you don't have to get out there and you don't have to be the one posting, but you can get out there and you can comment on those people who have content that really means something to you and really resonates with you.

  So that's one thing that I did. Um, something else that I did, you know, I haven't even looked at it in a very long time, but LinkedIn had, and maybe still does have a function where you can write an article and post it on LinkedIn. And I had never written an article before, you know, or posted it anywhere. And so, I did my very first article.

  Um, I think it was more than a legal advisor or something, but anyway, I posted it and when I posted that article, I had Vera DeVera, at the time was with Ironclad, and she saw my article and she asked if she could take it and if she could post it in their general counsel community. And then after that, she started asking me if I would be interested in doing a blog for Ironclad.

  So, you know, I, I started with these little things. I started commenting on posts. I did one article. I've never done another article on LinkedIn. Again, I did one and it took off. And that Ironclad blog turned into eventually me getting an Above the Law column. So, you just start little and small. You build relationships with people and that's how you take off is building those relationships, doing things small, doing what you're comfortable with and doing it consistently over time.

  Mosah: [00:26:47] And I think, you know, Lisa, the way that you phrased that, we do a lot of work with clients on their social media as they're beginning or in the midst of their search. And the advice you gave is great, whether or not, and applicable, I think, entirely, whether or not you want to be someone who just grows their network for purposes of networking and maybe looking for their new role or just helping expand their network.

  Or if you're interested in potentially becoming an influencer to a certain extent, right? But the same methodology, it's more just about scale and sort of ultimate goal. That advice, I'm going to have to go back and listen to the way that you phrased it because I think it's entirely appropriate regardless of the outcome that you're seeking.

  What are some things that people should not do? Probably not remain a lurker forever, but what are some of the things that you see people trip up on, or perhaps not take full advantage of who they are presenting themselves? What are some of the common social media or specifically LinkedIn mistakes you observe folks making?

  Lisa: [00:27:47] The one thing I would say is approaching anything you do as a transaction. I hate the word networking because networking feels like a tit for tat. You do this. I do that. I give, and then I get, and that's absolutely not the way I think this works. I think what you need to do is you need to give freely without any expectations.

  So, part of what I've done with LinkedIn, for example, is sometimes you'll post about something or someone and you shine a light, not on yourself, but you shine a light on somebody else and what it is they're doing. And you do it, not because you expect anything in return, but just because you want good things for that person.

  And I read a book, I think it's called Super Connector. And what it talks about is the psychology of people of reciprocity. People have this need to feel like they need to pay you back. So, you don't go out there and do something because you expect to get something back. Because the funny thing is that when you give and you give without expecting in return, and somebody is the beneficiary of that goodwill, that person really, really wants to find a way to be able to pay it back to you.

  So, I just think for those people that get out there and say, I'm going to post because I need to go out there and I need to generate clients. And if I don't land X amount of clients and X amount of time, then social media is not working for me as a marketing medium. And what I would say is that's because you're going out there with the wrong mindset.

  And I used to tell Alex Su too. He and I started this relationship, you know, talking about the posting and our experiences and stuff. And at the time he worked for Evisort? and I agreed to do a demo of Evisort. What was so cool about that is I trusted him explicitly. And so when I got on that call with him, when we talked about what it is that my organization needed at the time, we both kind of agreed that while he had a good product, that product didn't fit for me.

  And I said, you know, Alex, God help me, if there's anything that I need, you will sell me because I trusted him because of that relationship that we had. He could sell me anything.

  Mosah: [00:30:18] Can he sell you on doing TikTok videos?

  Lisa: [00:30:18] No, one thing he has not sold me on. Though, I will say, um, Flo Nicolas, and John Lindsey didn't have me do a TikTok video, but they got me to wear a Cher wig and sing You Got Me, Babe.

  So, that's about as close to TikTok. Yeah, that's as close to TikTok as I've ever gotten. But, but don't, don't do this as a transactional thing. This is about being authentic, building relationships, and not expecting anything in return. Because the irony of it is, actually, the more that you give without expectation, the more you get back.

  Mosah: [00:30:55] Couldn’t have said it any better.

  You know, our, our clients, they're looking for jobs, they're out wanting to ensure that they're positioned for the job market as best as they can be and to attract the folks who are going to connect them and avail them of those opportunities, I guess, in today's market, what advice would someone who has the breadth and depth of experience that you have, what advice to those looking for new roles?

  Would you, would you give today?

  Lisa: [00:31:31] Yeah, I think that people sometimes get hung up on titles and money in my career. When I went from private practice, and then I went to the Office of the Attorney General. As you can imagine, you don't make a lot when you're at the Attorney General's office, as compared to what I was making as an associate.

  But that move was such a great move for me, not only because it positioned me for essentially getting an in-house role. The other thing that working for a state entity did is I got to do things that I did not get to do when I was in private practice as an associate working for a partner. I, for the first time, was handling my own cases.

  So sometimes you have to take positions that will help provide you the experience base, but it may not have the status that you want to have. It may not pay what you want it to pay. When I took that job, it was right before the market crashed. You know, it was not easy. I could hear people saying, oh but you know, you were lucky you could afford to do that.

  I would, I could not afford to do that. I did not know what I was going to do when I transitioned. from private practice to the attorney general's office. But the attorney general's office afforded me opportunities and gave me exposure to people who eventually were able to help me move quickly up the ladder.

  It's almost like sometimes, sometimes you have to jump up off of one ladder and then you get on another ladder, and you can move up that ladder a lot quicker.

  Mosah: [00:33:14] Are you analogizing one's career to Donkey Kong?

  Lisa: [00:33:19] Exactly, exactly. You go off one and then you try another one. Um, and you know, I just got to the point where I was not happy doing what I was doing in private practice.

  And I wanted to have a new start and so I had to be willing to take a drop in pay and maybe take a role that some people would have thought had less status. But the irony of it is, is that I think because I made that decision, the ceiling for how much I could make went up exponentially because it was a bigger and taller ladder.

  And I enjoyed what I was doing. I think people are good at what they love to do. If you go in every day and you think it's a chore and you hate it, don't keep doing it. Go find something that you enjoy and don’t worry about the money and don't worry about the status, because I think that if you love what you do and you bring that passion to it every day, I think that you end up being able to advance a lot quicker and more opportunities open up to you because you make those choices.

  Mosah: [00:34:22] You definitely have a very interesting background and I'm sure our listeners are curious to take tidbits away from every step of your career journey. Thanks again.

  Lisa: [00:34:31] Thank you very much for the invitation.

Brian Davis | Advancing Careers: Insights for Outside Counsel From a Legal Recruiter

Brian Davis joins Mosah Fernandez Goodman on this episode of Hiring Insights to discuss advancing your career as an outside counsel. Brian handles lateral ⁠partner recruiting⁠ and ⁠in-house searches⁠ for financial services clients and law firms. He is particularly skilled in private equity, hedge fund, corporate, corporate finance, capital markets, compliance and tax searches for major financial institutions, broker-dealers, hedge funds, private equity funds, asset managers, sovereign wealth funds, family offices and law firms, domestically and internationally. In addition to his work in the United States, Brian has extensive experience with international firms in London, the European Union and the Middle East.

Topics discussed:

When do law firms choose to engage a search firm and what does that process look like?

Tools that candidates should be utilizing when either contemplating a search or in the middle of one.

If you’re an associate or partner considering a move, what active steps should you be taking?

No one is worried about your career except for you, you have to manage it.

Expectations for an attorney’s book of business and does that impact their ability to be recruited.

Common myths about the recruiting process.

Trends in the legal industry.

Red flags that candidates should avoid.

• transcript

  [00:00:48] Mosah: Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to another episode of Hiring Insights. I'm your host, Mosah Fernandez Goodman. Today's episode is being brought to you by Top Talent Advocates. Today, we're joined by a seasoned recruiting pro. Brian Davis of Major Lindsay Africa is someone who has experience on both sides of the legal equation, if you will, representing employers in their searches for both in-house candidates and law firms in their searches for partners and associates.

  And so, could not be more thrilled to welcome Brian to the show today. Brian, thanks so much for joining us.

  [00:01:24] Brian: Thank you, Mosah. And as you mentioned, my name is Brian Davis. I'm the managing partner of the New York office of Major Lindsay and Africa. We are the world's largest legal recruiting firm. As a matter of fact, the New York office, if it were a standalone business, would be the world's largest legal recruiting firm.

  As you had mentioned, we place both in-house and law firm lawyers. We work with every law firm in the country, and we like to think of ourselves as thought leaders. We publish a lateral partner satisfaction survey, which we've published since 1996. Uh, we do the law firm compensation survey. And we also have a law firm culture survey.

  So we feel we're pretty deep in this space and helps us, uh, do our jobs better.

  [00:02:07] Mosah: Thanks so much, Brian. That's really helpful. And I know in working with candidates and clients across the country that the MLA surveys are often a benchmark in how people think about each of those areas. So thanks so much for sharing that and reminding us about their availability.

  Brian, you know, let's get to know you a little bit. Um, would you share some information about and some maybe personal experiences about who you are? I know you're an attorney or at least a recovering attorney. Give us a little insight into who you are and kind of how you got into this field.

  [00:02:38] Brian: Well, I'm as New York as anybody can be.

  I was born and raised in Brooklyn. I spent my entire educational career in the city of New York. I went to Fordham undergrad, I went to Brooklyn Law School, and I have an LM from NYU, so a deep New York connections. I'm married. My son just started NYU last week. I don't think he's going to be a lawyer, although my daughter is going to law school.

  So, uh, we'll see how this all works out. But it's very New York, very Brooklyn, as you can tell by my accent, New York born and bred. I practiced law for, gosh, a quarter of a century. And like a lot of happy accidents stumbled into this career in my late 40s. I had no idea I'd be any good at it. And it turns out I'm very good at it, but it was, my law firm went out of business.

  I was, as I said, in my late 40s, trying to figure out what to do next. And somebody steered me into this career, and it's been a great success and I'm always internally grateful to the woman who first taught me how to be a recruiter.

  [00:03:45] Mosah: That’s great. That's great. As a fellow native New Yorker, I might ask you later in the episode, you know, do you know what a grit is?

  But, uh, that's a lot more so to the show, the movie my cousin Vinny. Um, alright, so let's spend a little bit of time talking about law firms, and when they come to engage a search firm. You know, there are a lot of boutiques out there. There's obviously the AM Law 100 and 200, and a lot of these law firms have recruiting departments of their own.

  Tell us a little bit about when law firms, uh, choose to engage a search firm and, and what that looks like. Where, how do you meet those needs?

  [00:04:20] Brian: We're usually approached as part of a process. It's no secret. Anybody can go on a firm's website or go through LinkedIn now and get names, but we get hired to navigate the process, really, to use our deep expertise.

  If a firm is unfamiliar with a geography or an area of practice they will hire us to start by mapping out the market, seeing who's out there. And then once we are retained for that, then we decide the best method of approaching that talent. Uh, we work, we're actually doing several of these right now.

  We work closely with the law firms after we've identified candidates. Uh, we figure out the best talent for the strategic growth usually of a law firm. Are we plugging a hole? That would take us one way. Is a firm going into a new direction? That would take us another way. Is a firm in a practice area, but really needs to get bigger in order to compete.

  And that'll steer us in another direction. So it's really listening and coming up with a plan to approach the talent in the market. We also vet the talent not to disparage other people. We don't just throw resumes against the wall. We really meet with people and try to add a lot of value to the search process.

  Again, it's not a secret. Anybody can go on LinkedIn now. As my friend who was a bartender used to tell me, knowing how to pour the drink is 10 percent of the job. And I always thought that was a great description of being a good recruiter. You know, knowing where the people are is 10 percent of the job.

  The rest of it is, uh, matching expectations and really being able to, I hate to keep using this word, navigate the process to a successful conclusion.

  [00:06:08] Mosah: So Brian, at the end of the day, when you're looking to place someone in a law firm, what are those core responsibilities? What is it that you're really charged with doing as a recruiter in helping matchmaker bridge those needs to those demands?

  [00:06:21] Brian: Well, I'd say the first of the criteria is listening to the firm's reasons for going into the market. Like, how can we help them achieve their goal? And is it entering a new market? Is it entering a new geography? Is it entering a new practice area? Is it filling a hole with somebody who's left recently?

  Is it needing to bulk up? Especially in New York, you usually need to have deep benches to compete for most work. Once we've come up with the reasons for the search, when we start talking to candidates, we'll ask them the nature of their client relationships. Sometimes this is really important in their book of business.

  Can they sustain themselves? I've had managing partners say to us, he's really terrific or she's really terrific, but what's she going to do when she gets here? We have business, but we don't have enough business to keep this person busy. They have to come in the door with some business that they can work on.

  The other key area is practice area. And then we also try to delve into candidates reputation in the market. We keep everything confidential, but we try to figure out, is this going to be a match in reputation between the candidate and the law firm? I think I had mentioned before we map the market, we come up with a target list.

  We also try very early on to avoid what I, we consider fatal conflicts, which are just nonstarters. You know, it's very important if you're doing a search for a pharma company, are they generic? Are they branded? Is your candidate's biggest client, Apple, but the biggest client at the firm is Google, that's probably going to be an irreconcilable conflict.

  And you want that out right away. We love you, but we can't move ahead, because this conflict can't be overcome. And then we also will move fairly quickly into some sort of draft of a business plan with the candidate, because lawyers like to see things in writing, and that applies to the lateral partner process, where even though a candidate might consider it homework, we always tell them, you're going to have to do this eventually.

  And it will help you to explain yourself if you can reduce things to writing so that a law firm management committee or a hiring partner can say, okay, now I get it. Okay, this is where you're going to go with this business plan. We rarely place partners who haven't worked on a business plan and that's, that's the value we add for working with a recruiter.

  Because we have form after form, we filled out hundreds of them, and can really help them put pen to paper. But, uh, at least come up with something that something, somebody, something can be distributed. Because what candidates have to understand is law firms are big businesses, they have operating committees, they have management committees, they have executive committees, and there's going to be something put in front of the decision makers.

  And it has to be a professional business plan that somebody can go through and say, okay, this makes sense for us to, to bring this person on board.

  [00:09:21] Mosah: Yeah, no, that's great. And that, that's true for really all materials, right? Whether it be a resume or someone's LinkedIn profile. Um, I love the, the age-old adage of everything communicates.

  So whether it be a business plan or a resume, even some cases, and I don't know, this is the newer experience, putting together a pitch deck can be helpful to linking a candidate to the right part. So Brian, you know, the pitch deck concept is one that we've worked on for startups and we've also worked on firms.

  Any thoughts on that?

  [00:09:51] Brian: Well, we usually advise candidates that they should be viewing this opportunity as you would trying to land a client. If you have doubts, hold them inside, get through this round of interviews, but, you know, be in either sales or pitch mode. Try not to under promise and over deliver because, trust me, the law firm is going to assume you're over promising.

  And to just really come up with a cohesive business plan that's probably going to be read by anywhere from 10 to 20 people. And it's probably the most important part of the whole process.

  [00:10:24] Mosah: Brian, just curious to get your take on sort of the myriad of tools that candidates or job seekers can avail themselves of as they either undergo or even maybe just contemplate a search.

  [00:10:38] Brian: Well, I suggest following the many publications now that track deals, track movement, and just see what's going on, especially in your practice area. If so and so has moved firms, you might want to say, why is that happening? I, like most recruiters, I'm on LinkedIn every day, and everybody likes to put up notices about their deals.

  And I find you can figure out a lot of information of different law firms, different lawyers. And if you're an M&A lawyer in New York and you see that somebody, one of your competitors, has posted four deals in the last two weeks, it may give you pause to think, okay, why is he getting this work? Why am I not getting this work?

  So, I think you can see who's doing well, to be candid, but I use LinkedIn a lot, and I think law firm partners can certainly check in on that, and they do, and see what their peers are up to, because LinkedIn's around a decade old. Prior to that, it was pretty hard to suss out what everybody was up to, but now it's pretty much open book, and you can see what you're, either you're friends or your competition are doing.

  So, I strongly suggest tracking what's going on in your practice area through LinkedIn and there's Penhawk and there's other areas, but I think LinkedIn is the best at that, right?

  [00:11:55] Mosah: And if you might share with us a little bit about in addition to working with a recruiter, some of the other resources that a candidate could avail themselves of as I either enter or will contemplate entering a search?

  [00:12:08] Brian: Well, again, being on social media and every law firm now has issues, press releases, which they never used to do. And so, I think it's a good idea to see what you're doing and your firm is doing matches up to your peers? Are you pretty much step-by-step with them?

  Are they outpacing you? Have they recently taken on a client that you wanted? And it's really good to just track the competition to see what's going on. It doesn't have to be LinkedIn, but any of these online publications. See who's moving. Is this a big change in the market? Has somebody lost a key player at a firm you're really interested in?

  And maybe this is the time to talk to that firm about joining them because they just lost their ERISA partner or whatever the skill set is. And you've always wanted to go there and it was never feasible, but now it is because they've lost the talent. So I, I think that's a good idea. And I, I think it's also part of practice development, like you just really should know what's going on in the market and with your competition as much as possible.

  [00:13:15] Mosah: Brian, if we could spend a little bit of time now, the next couple of minutes, at least focusing on really some advice for candidates. And we've touched on some of the topics that I think are beneficial for candidates. Let's spend some time giving some advice to either associates or partners who maybe have an itch, if you will, to switch firms or don't know when they should even be open to new opportunities as they're approached by people like you.

  So just some general advice as to when, when you would recommend giving your years of experience in both practice and recruiting. When should someone consider making a switch to a new firm?

  [00:13:51] Brian: Well, this applies to associates and partners. Nobody is worried about your career. So you need to worry about your career.

  Just kind of floating along, thinking that there's somebody in your firm who's worried about you is just unrealistic. So I always suggest developing a relationship with one or two or three recruiters, do background checks, try to find out who you think would match up with what you want to accomplish out of life, and then check in with that person once a year, once every six months.

  I know at this stage of my career; I have people checking with me every week. There's a different person checking in. They want to take inventory. Where's my career going? Am I making enough money? And just talk to a good recruiter. Even if the recruiter doesn't end up moving you, they can be a good sounding board.

  I had a guy today call me from a firm and he just wanted to do a market check. He said, here's what's going on at my firm. Here's what I'm worried about. I don't want to leave, but I want to know what's going on in the market. And a good recruiter will really have a grip on the market and can say, I, the guy today, I said, stay where you are.

  You're in a pretty good position and I really suggest you stay where you are for now. Things may change a year or so from now, but. I think the timing isn't right for you to try to make a move. And I also try to get candidates to think about the issues that drive movement. And in no particular order, compensation, even if people tell you it's not the main motivation, tends to be a big motivator and compensation, not on an absolute basis, but usually on a relative basis am I, how am I doing with people in similar jobs or similar partnerships doing the same amount of work?

  Another big thing to be on the lookout for are potential conflicts. I represent Apple and the firm's wooing Google. That doesn't bode well for me. And I should really now start thinking about do I have to make a move. The biggest complaint we get or the biggest motivator for moving I still think it's compensation, but after compensation is a lack of confidence in the firm's strategy or management.

  We've done surveys for almost 30 years, and that always is either number one, two, or three on the reasons that somebody decides to move. They are not aligned with the growth of the firm, so they have to start looking around. And then the other thing that always pops up in capital letters, and I hear this a lot from candidates, is culture.

  There's several firms out right now that are incredibly successful. When partners approach us from those firms, it's usually not money, it's culture. Okay, I'm making a lot of money, but I'm miserable. I need to be at a place where I like going to work every day. And, uh, we hear that a lot. And when it's not money, it's culture for people who want to move.

  And then you have other things where you've brought on a new client. And that client is based in London or has operations in London or whatever city, and your firm is completely domestic, and you have to analyze whether you really need to be at a firm with a foreign office or a particular foreign office.

  I would say working in New York, the number one city that gets mentioned to me at least is London. Most of the partners I work with, the firm has to have a presence in London. And then the final thing, and this depends upon, um, where you are in your career is, do you see a possibility for leadership or growth opportunities?

  Is it important for you to be the leader of a practice or will that help you grow your business? And if that is important, do you see that happening where you are now? If you don't see it happening, then you might call a recruiter to talk about, okay, I'm actually not too bad here, but I know that I'll never be the leader of this practice group and that's important to me, uh, for my career.

  So I need to start considering firms where I could go in, in a leadership position.

  [00:18:01] Mosah: That’s wonderful insight. So if you're a candidate in the market, either today or just generally, what are some of the things you can do to make yourself more marketable, whether or not you want to lead, what can you really sort of do to make it easier to be recruited?

  And why should people do this if it's growing a book of business, if it's enhancing their reputation? What are some of those things that someone can do to have someone like you call them?

  [00:18:29] Brian: Well, I'll go back to what I said initially. I really think it's a good idea to have a relationship with a respected recruiter just for market intel and a take on where the candidate is relative to his peers at other firms.

  And I find a lot of partners rely too much on getting a call and not enough on establishing relationship or relationships with respected recruiters. This way you can do, as I had mentioned before, the market check. I'll repeat what I said initially, is no one's worried about your career except for you.

  So you really need to manage it. Be something that sometimes lawyers have trouble with, which is being proactive. You can always stay where you are. We always tell candidates, hey, you can always say no. Nobody's going to force you to do something ever. But it's a mistake to at least not understand why you're doing what you're doing.

  And even if you stay where you are, you're making a decision. You know, you're making that decision every day. And it should be a decision based upon an educated understanding of the market itself. I find that sometimes lawyers, it's easy to just kind of thinking they're not making that decision to stay or go.

  But by staying, you're making that decision. And you should really have a reason for that almost every day that you're at a law firm. Because that's the big difference. Compared to when I graduated from law school, you usually got a job and stayed there for your entire career. Now, even a cursory review of the different market publications, you'll see that moving around is actually much more common, way more common than it used to be.

  And every law firm, in the city and in the country and the world is now in that market and you should understand what that all means as far as you and your career.

  [00:20:20] Mosah: That’s a great segue to my next question, which is related to the concept of a book of business and perhaps it's portability. There are at least in my professional networks and even in my social networks, a wide variety of attorneys in terms of their appetite for ability to add sort of phases of developing a book of business.

  Some, some folks in my experience have no book of business and, and are really just interested in doing the work. I'm curious if you might shed some light and admittedly, this is, this is a tough question because there's not a single answer that can be applied to every situation, but you could share some, some insight to the expectations for an attorney's book and maybe how that may impact their ability to be recruited or potentially need lead firms.

  [00:20:15] Brian: well, I'll be a lawyer now and not answer that question because as with most things in life. It depends. I think some people are way more comfortable being a partner who is a good partner and loyal and works hard, but just has no desire to develop client relationships.

  I think that also is a big change compared to 40 or 50 years ago, where you could work at a firm your entire career, never develop client skills, but still have a really good job. My take on the whole market is that's changing dramatically. I think if your plan is to never develop clients, you're really taking a big risk with your career.

  I often say that the only job security law firm partners really have is their clients, their book of business, and you want to try to develop that as soon as possible. Uh, I think that most law firms now, if not all, value that. And, uh, there's a whole industry of executive coaches and the law firms have their own trainers who will sit with you and say, okay, like it or not, you're in the sales game now.

  What are you trying to sell? Who's your target clients? How do you grow your book of business? I don't think there's a magic number, really. And, I have seen partners move with no clients, but they usually have a skill set that's almost impossible to find. And, uh, law firms will take them on. I've actually had a law firm say to me at one stage that they wanted the partner to leave his clients.

  Because it just didn't make any difference to them because it's he was a strategic acquisition and they had plenty of work to keep him busy. But I think it's risky in your career, especially if you're out 15 or maybe 20 years, and you've really never developed client relationships to think, how long can I keep doing this?

  Um, it's now a big part of every law firm. And I think it would be wise for partners to try to develop those skills. And if it's uncomfortable, that's okay. Not everybody's a born rainmaker, but there's so much available lessons and classes and teaching and as a recovering service partner, which is what I was before I got into recruiting I know that there's skills down there that everybody has.

  I had never made a call in my life until I became a recruiter. And then I had to. And then I found out I could do it. And then I found out I was good at it. And I think that most law firm partners need to kind of deal with it the way I dealt with it, which is do it and not rely on somebody else doing that for you.

  I know it's difficult and I know it can be a big challenge for people, but I really think that if you're looking at working for 20 or 30 more years or 40 more years, it would really reduce your career risks if you can develop client relationships,

  [00:24:10] Mosah: That's really helpful. And I think phrased well for a question that is truly impossible to answer.

  So thanks again for that insight. Brian, when you think about maybe even practice groups and some of the other attributes that might go along with someone to move from one firm to another, do you think about teams of attorneys when you're sometimes looking to fill a firm or clients needs to satisfy that to say the portability of a full department or practice area, if you will, from one firm to another, do you think about those connections that sit below or adjacent to the candidate themselves?

  [00:24:47] Brian: When you talk about team movement, they just add layers of dynamics. I know as a recruiter, what we try to figure out is who's really driving the process. And if somebody is driving the process, is everybody else on board? So you need to manage expectations and to be candid egos sometimes. And just trying to figure out, usually when there's groups, there's a spokesperson.

  And is that spokesperson really the spokesperson? Or is his or her desires not matching up with the rest of the team? Because I've seen that also too, where somebody approached us as a spokesperson for a group, and then halfway through the process, you realize, oh no, he or she was not the spokesperson. That this was his desires.

  So as recruiters, what we try to do when we are working with groups. It's to meet with everybody on the group in the group to figure out if everybody's aligned. If there's five people doesn't make as much sense for the fifth person to do this as for the first person, and it doesn't always isn't always driven by who controls the clients because many times there may be a partner with the key client relationship, but a junior partner if the junior partner doesn't go, sometimes it doesn't work because the client knows who's doing all the work and says, I don't mind switching firms, but this person has to come. So you have to be aware of that.

  And the other thing within a group or multiple attorneys is figuring out potential conflicts, personal conflicts, business conflicts, ethical conflicts.

  So it just gets more complicated with a group. And it's been a, it was a major group movement over the last two weeks. I wasn't involved in it, but I'm, I'm guessing that went so smoothly because there was an alignment with the group of the necessity to do something and also the firm they were talking to.

  [00:26:41] Mosah: Could you pepper us with just a few quick common myths about the recruitment process?

  [00:26:47] Brian: Yeah. I think the most common myth is that recruiters are the enemy. And recruiters actually can get somebody to do something they don't want to do. I've never seen that ever. I think a good recruiter manages expectations.

  That's the myth I hear the most. It's somehow recruiters are actually driving the process and they're not, they're just, they're advisors. And a good recruiter understands that. So I'd say that's the biggest myth I find. And the other thing is, maybe this isn't a myth, but one time a law firm partner said to me: in this age and in this country, the thought of staying someplace where you're not happy just mystified him. He said, you're well educated, you work hard, you should be doing stuff you want to do. And I've heard partners say that to me, the devil you know. And I think, jeez, you're only 10, 15 years into your career.

  That just seems dreary, that you would keep doing the same thing. Not being fulfilled, you know, happy may be the wrong word, but not being fulfilled because you just are afraid that if you go someplace else you'll just be as unhappy except in a new place. And the other myth that I hear a lot too is that all law firms are the same.

  I don't think that's true at all. But I think that there's a stark difference between firms, and as an outsider, a recruiter, I think I can see that sometimes more clearly than people who are actually playing the game in the law firms. And I think that's the value that a good recruiter can add, is explaining why you should talk to X firm instead of Y firm.

  Because there is, there's cultural differences, there's economic differences, and there's firms that are just really good at nurturing talent. And I think that's important.

  [00:28:38] Mosah: Brian, you know, there’s the legal industry is just that it's an industry and it's got ebbs and flows. It's got evolutions and innovation as someone who's been in the game, if you will, either as an attorney or as a recruiter for several decades.

  What are some of the changes that you've seen? And how have those changes impacted the market for talent? Sometimes people talk about particular firm or particular, uh, maybe even region being dominated by particular practice areas. Curious if you might shed a little light on what you see as those trends.

  [00:29:12] Brian: Well, one trend I've seen over the last 20 or 30 years is kind of the concentration of practice groups. And from where I sit, most firms, if not every firm, is focused on private equity, a business that didn't exist even 50 years ago. And then I'd say public M&A, and I'd say internal investigations. I'd say bet the ranch commercial litigation.

  Big ticket white collar. And then finally, I'd say IP litigation. Uh, there were other incredibly important practice areas, but these seem to come up with every, in every law firm meeting I go to. I always joke that the three most important practice areas in New York are private equity, number two, private equity, and number three, private equity.

  The areas I mentioned are where law firms probably get the least pushback on rates. And a lot of other practice areas, maybe they're not commodities, but the firms do get a lot of pushback on rates. But these high profile areas. Especially like internal investigations or white collar, where you're going to go to jail if you lose the case so you don't quibble so much with what the bill rate is.

  And I was thinking back to 2008 during the financial crisis, when big institutions were either went out of business or were in a lot of trouble. Nobody quippled with Rodge Cohens bill rate at Sullivan and Cromwell or Brad Karp's bill rate at Paul Weiss. Because it was, you know, the success or the continuation of a major enterprise depended on getting the right person on the phone who could give you the right advice.

  And I think that that's become even more pronounced 15 years later, that there's ] just these areas where law firms can bill over 2,000 an hour now, if not more, uh, because the importance of these areas cannot be overstated in the legal profession.

  [00:31:18] Mosah: If we could, for a second, flip the script and jump on the side of your client that you've provided a ton of insight for those candidates looking for. We can peek behind the curtain. If a law firm comes to you, and there's probably some variety, and maybe there's not a 1 size fits all to this question either, but um, someone comes to you and says, you know, Brian, we need a, we need to hire a particular skill set for a law firm. What's the average time or length of search? What are their typical expectations? What's the range in there? Just so we can help demystify some of the time.

  [00:31:52] Brian: Not to sound like a lawyer again, but an equivocate, but it depends.

  But I've worked on a search that went on for well over a year. But I think that I know that the data from our surveys shows that by far most searches take three months. It can be shorter, uh, it can be a lot longer, but on our most recent survey, more than 50 percent of the people we spoke to said that their search took three months.

  So that's, uh, I'll stick with that. And that seems reasonable when, when we were approached by a firm and they asked for this timeline, we, we try to tell them a lot of it depends on them, but our studies show that it takes around three months.

  [00:32:32] Mosah: And in looking on behalf of your clients, you know, the law firms.

  And also maybe from a law firm's perspective, what are some of the red flags that candidates should be aware of that potentially disqualify them or at least make them less attractive to potential lawyers. What are some of those things where you said oh, I can't believe they did that or I would have never phrased it that way. What are some of those things they can see?

  [00:32:59] Brian: Well, this could go on for quite a while. Okay, but I won't bore you. So, but here's the one thing that is a red flag for me is when I'm speaking to a law firm partner who's obviously well-educated and sophisticated and I ask for some basic information and I get double talk or a slowness to respond or just some evasiveness that sets off red flags because people love bragging about their successes.

  So if somebody's dodging a basic question, then I think, okay, I need to really go into this, uh, deeply. One of my former colleagues would say if she asked a law firm associate what their grades were and the associate said, well, I don't think grades are important and my colleague would say how bad are they then? Because if you had all As, you would be telling me in a second that you had all As.

  And, um, we kind of take that approach where we give somebody the opportunity to brag and they just equivocate, and that's usually a red flag that we need to, uh, and sometimes we're wrong that the person just didn't want to talk about it at that moment. But we know we have to go back and check on that because we don't want to work with a candidate who is evasive and then he gets in front of the law firm and is evasive again, that reflects on us. So that's a red flag we look for. The other thing is, um, and this is not dispositive, but if somebody's made a lot of moves, we have to just delve into that. And a lot of times people have good reasons.

  Their firm went out of business. Their practice group moved. They got conflicted out, which is probably the number one reason. But we have to then dig into that because within law firms, the law firm is going to want to find out, okay, this person's been with 10 law firms in 10 years. We'll listen to the story, but why?

  Uh, and it has to make sense. So those are, I'd say, two big red flags we look for when we work with candidates.

  [00:35:00] Mosah: And I’m wondering if you could maybe just opine for a minute or so on, uh, what you're seeing in the legal market today.

  [00:35:05] Brian: Well, I'd say that, again, this is not just this year, but over the last decade or so, one of the biggest trends has been the upswing in compensation.

  Uh, the Wall Street Journal has an article on this. It came out around a month or so ago. Partners in the big law firms, especially in New York, are making money that investment bankers made 20 years ago. I'd say the other big change has been mergers. There seems like there's fewer and fewer firms. Uh, there's still a lot of firms.

  I think the other thing is the difficulty that mid-sized firms have in competing with the big firms. Uh, so boutiques always seem to do okay, but it's harder for firms that have a structure similar to a Skadden Arps, but just can't afford to maintain that structure. So I'd say that was a, that's a big change.

  And when I got out of law school, there were dozens, if not hundreds, of medium sized firms, most of which have gone out of business. The other trend I'm seeing is the domination of New York in the legal market. A lot of firms that were started out in Chicago or Los Angeles or Texas, now count New York as their biggest office because they have to be here and they have to have a significant practice or significant presence in New York.

  Going back to private equity, I'm finding that private equity is driving many, if most not, most law firm decisions. Witness the recent, uh, big moves in New York and London. And another thing that's, I think time will tell, is the availability for remote work or work from home or two to three days in the office, we won't know how that's going to play out at least for another five years or so, but that's been a change because we get a lot of lawyers who are very happy, but just do not want to go back to work in five days a week in the office.

  Every lawyer works seven days a week, uh, but they just don't want to be in the office five days a week. So I say that's, that's a big change, but what's going to happen. Only time will tell.

  [00:37:06] Mosah: So Brian, thanks so much for joining us. I've enjoyed our conversations prior to the recording. And, uh, really excited to share your years of insight and, uh, actually decades of perspective with our listeners.

  So thanks again for joining.

  [00:37:19] Brian: Thank you, Mosah. Happy to be here.

Bryan Krajeski | Behind the Scenes With a Recruiter: Utilizing Your Career Tools, Networking, Searching for a Job

Mosah Fernandez Goodman sits down with Bryan Krajeski in this episode of Hiring Insights. Bryan is not only an incredible external recruiter, but he also has a long history of sales, marketing, and internal recruiting experience. In addition to giving us some insight into the recruiting world, both internal and external recruiters, Bryan will help us understand what goes on behind the scenes in a recruiting process, tips and tricks for how to optimize your LinkedIn profile, the importance of networking, how to draft a great cover letter, and use your resume effectively to help yourself get noticed.

Specific steps a recruiter goes through to place someone; sourcing, building a talent pool, challenges.

How to advantage yourself as a candidate.

What happens after you submit an online application?

Recruiter myths.

Making outreach to a recruiter; when they can help, and when they can’t.

Utilize the career tools at your disposal (LinkedIn, resumes, cover letters) but put thought and strategy into how you are creating them.

Requisites and red flags for resumes.

Network. Network. Network. Talk to the recruiters who make outreach, look to people in your industry, and strategize what companies you are targeting.

How best to work with a recruiter.

What qualities make a most placeable candidate (MPC)?

Finding a new position is a marathon not a sprint.

• Transcript

  [00:00:00] Richard: Welcome to Hiring Insights. The podcast that provides insight into the executive hiring process and experience, whether you are a job seeker, a people leader, a recruiter, an executive coach, or simply interested in talent, there is something here for you on the Hiring Insights. Today's episode is presented by Top Talent Advocates, where we advocate for executive and legal talent.

  You can learn more about Top Talent Advocates, listen to other episodes, and hire great talent by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and clicking on podcast. Now here's your host for Hiring Insights, Mosah Fernandez Goodman.

  [00:00:44] Mosah: Today, I'm joined by Bryan Krajeski. In addition to being an incredible external recruiter, Bryan has a long history of sales, marketing, and internal recruiting experience. In addition to giving us some insight into the recruiting world, both internal and external recruiters, Bryan will help us understand what goes on behind the scenes in a recruiting process and tips and tricks for how to optimize your LinkedIn profile, draft a great cover letter, and you use your resume effectively to help yourself get noticed.

  Hey Bryan, thanks so much for joining us today. You're incredibly versed in the recruitment and talent management space, particularly in the insurance and risk management space. Although I know that's not all you do.

  I'm hopeful you can share with our candidates and our listeners a little bit about your background and how you got to where you are.

  [00:01:45] Bryan: So my bachelor's degree is in marketing and my MBA is in marketing. But my background of getting into recruiting had been in various sales and marketing roles and account management, you know, through that, I feel like I learned resilience.

  I learned relationship building. I learned how to be adaptable by working both for companies that were more nimble, uh, smaller, where you had to adapt quickly and then also working for larger companies of learning how to, you know, be professionally persistent. And all of that kind of comes through, helping me get into an internal recruiting role and making that kind of plunge and leap of faith.

  And from there, I think I learned how to overall understand the industry and then make my way into agency recruiting.

  [00:02:34] Mosah: Bryan, how many hours would you say you spend a day sourcing, recruiting and talking to candidates?

  [00:02:40] Bryan: I probably work about a 12 to 16-hour day on average. And out of that day, I will spend probably a good two hours sourcing for candidates on LinkedIn, going through LinkedIn recruiter, looking for people that match certain job titles and going through resumes that I've collected over the months, just to make sure I'm not missing anything.

  Also going back and even, you know, doing research on candidates who took jobs to see how things are going with them.

  [00:03:11] Mosah: Why do you like this sector? What do you like the role that you currently hold?

  [00:03:15] Bryan: I love networking. I love meeting and talking to new people. I love the challenge of getting a job order from a client and helping them fulfill that.

  There's a lot of strategy that goes into this. I love meeting with employers to understand why do they have this need? And I understand our, excuse me, I love also talking to employers to understand, like, what makes you a great place to work? Why do candidates want to come work for you? Tell me about, you know, your best employee that you have and tell me about your worst.

  And I want to hear all of that from them. So then when I go out to meet with candidates, I can help sell them. And I always tell employers too, that when I get a job order one of the reasons that I'm so passionate about what I do is because I'm not just going to go find a candidate within a week's time and go find someone to fill a role.

  A lot of the candidates that I'm placing Mosah are going to be candidates who have built a relationship for months, if not years. And I go back to them and say, I just got this job order based on the conversations that we've had over the last six months, I think you might be a really good fit for it.

  [00:04:21] Mosah: Can you give us a little bit of insight into you outside of work?

  What do you like to do? What's your favorite brand of coffee? Those kinds of things.

  [00:04:29] Bryan: So I am an avid coffee drinker. I will tell you that. I'm the proud owner of two espresso machines and use them both religiously throughout my day, but in what little spare free time I have, you know, my wife and I love to chase around our little two-and-a-half-year-old and just do fun family activities.

  Uh, I'm a big soccer player. I'm terrible, but I love to do it. And I love to meet people just through the Omaha soccer community. And I've built a lot of lifelong friends through that as well. And even I've helped people in my soccer community get jobs. Not through me, but just helping kind of shepherd that network.

  [00:05:06] Mosah: That’s great. And so you live here in Omaha, but do you only recruit in Omaha or tell us a little bit about the scope of your business.

  [00:05:13] Bryan: So the bread and butter of what I do is going to be on the west coast, but I've been building over the last probably 12 to 18 months, maybe or even since, you know, since 2020, I've been doing more work just throughout the United States.

  I've been getting more job orders and strong clients on the east coast and Texas, you know, Nevada, Utah, Arizona. I've been filling positions actually here in the Midwest, you know, in Omaha and Kansas and Iowa.

  [00:05:44] Mosah: So Bryan, think about this as what you'd been doing as an internal recruiter. And if you might be willing to share with our listeners, the specific steps our recruiter goes through when working to place someone.

  So everything from working with a hiring manager on a job description, through to the onboarding of a candidate.

  [00:06:04] Bryan: So the steps of an internal recruiter from that perspective are going to be probably coming up with a job description and it might be something where the recruiter is given the job description.

  It might be something where the recruiter actually helps create the job description. And this can vary depending if it's a newly created job, or if it's like a repeat position where they're hiring multiple, but a recruiter will most likely work with the hiring manager, whoever the hiring authority is.

  You know, look out, hey, what are the different roles, responsibilities, duties, types of background that they're looking for the position and the recruiter from that perspective, it's going to then, you know, take that job description and essentially go source.

  [00:06:44] Mosah: When you say go source, what does that mean?

  [00:06:47] Bryan: I mean, I think the most common thing that people think of is going to be going on to things like LinkedIn.

  So use a platform like a LinkedIn or a ZipRecruiter or tapping into a network. And from sourcing, I think a good recruiter is going to first look at what does the ideal candidate look like? And so maybe it's like literally going to a competitor and figuring out, hey, who do our competitors employ in this type of a position?

  Or, you know, what does that ideal person look like? And then how do I go find that person. And so it's going to be sourcing based on trying to find someone on whether it's the right education, whether it's the right skillsets.

  [00:07:20] Mosah: And so after sourcing, what is a recruiter's next step? What we're trying to do for listeners is help demystify, I guess, the process that goes on behind that recruiting curtain, if you will.

  [00:07:31] Bryan: So a recruiter after a sourcing would probably build some sort of talent pool. And they're going to kind of figure out who I want to target. And that's kind of when the reach-out happens and how do they contact that person? Most commonly, I think people are going to be using LinkedIn as their network to reach out to people for positions.

  So at that point, a recruiter is going to reach out to potential candidates and it's kind of say, Hey, Mosah, I have this position here. This is what I'm working on. Give a little bit of the background of what that position looks like. Is this something or just been talking about or, Hey, do you know somebody?

  And a lot of the times when I reach out to candidates, I'm just asking them, do you know someone who might have interest in this position. Sometimes, what I'll do is I will literally go look at candidates who I know are not the right fit for the job, but it seems like they were probably connected to people that would do something like this.

  [00:08:15] Mosah: Really helpful and insightful.

  Thank you. What are some of the, I guess, common challenges or recruiter faces during the recruitment process? So we know as a candidate, what obstacles we run into and what roadblocks we might hit and pursuing an opportunity, but there are an equal number of challenges for recruiters. Would you shed some light on that?

  Some of the hurdles and roadblocks that you have to overcome in order to source some place that, that ideal candidate?

  [00:08:42] Bryan: Rejection.

  [00:08:43] Mosah: That's the story of my life, Bryan.

  [00:08:45] Bryan: So join the club, man. We meet on Saturday mornings. So rejection number one is the biggest roadblock that they face, I think, but alongside that, a lot of it comes down to compensation.

  If you have a newly created job and you're working out the job description and you've been given a budget for this position, sometimes it's the difference of perception trying to meet reality and can the expectation live up to it. So when you're reaching out to candidates and you say, hey, I'm a position that pays X and most candidates in that industry are looking for Y that's very tough sometimes.

  And so that's where you have to go back to the roadmap and say, okay, we're going to revisit the drawing board here. Are we going to be able to get what we want for this position within the salary range? So recruiters will face things like salary as a roadblock, logistics, I mean, depending on the role, where can this person be housed?

  And so that is probably one of the biggest hurdles. I would say, recruiters face right now

  [00:09:44] Mosah: To overcome some of those hurdles, right, obviously without necessarily reducing their compensation expectations, because they're not too many people who are willing to negotiate against themselves. What are some things that candidates can do to make it easy to be recruited?

  Give a candidate, some insight into how to advantage themselves.

  [00:10:02] Bryan: Primarily, I would say it's important for candidates just to be open to a conversation. And a lot of times I think people are going to just say, no, I'm not interested. I at least would always advise people to just be open to having a conversation because you're building your network.

  We know the degrees of separation in certain industries are very small and you're trying to leave that door open for maybe not this thing, but something in the future. I've always told candidates, just have that initial call. I mean, if you know, it's something you're not interested in, hey, I get that and I respect that.

  But if it's something where you think like, you know, I'm not interested right now, but this could be an opportunity for the. Have that initial call. And so I think not closing the door initially is one of the biggest things.

  [00:10:49] Mosah: And then what would you say some of the most common myths are about the recruitment process?

  [00:10:54] Bryan: I actually read an article on this probably, I don't know, six months ago. I can't remember where it was, but one of the funniest things is that I think that because hiring managers are the ones obviously making the, like the judgment call. So a candidate would go interview with a hiring manager. Not every hiring manager is equipped to conduct an interview.

  They're not all good interviewers. And I think that that's a common myth that the industry faces is that if a hiring manager is the one conducting the interview, they know what they're doing.

  [00:11:26] Mosah: Bryan, would you be willing to share a little bit of, uh, insider peek behind the curtain as to what happens when someone submits an online application?

  That's often a question clients have.

  [00:11:37] Bryan: Yeah. And nine times out of 10, when a candidate submits an application, it's going to sit in some applicant tracking system, depending on the size of the company, a recruiter will filter that based on keywords from a resume that matches the job description based on title, based on company.

  I mean, I can imagine some of the behemoth companies are going to literally filter so many of these applications based on the keyword search. So for most candidates, when you send in an application, it's going to sit in an applicant tracking system and you know, you may get the initial response. It just says, hey, we received your resume.

  If there's a match, we'll be in touch. And typically, you know, within, well, hopefully a short amount of time, at least there's a reach out and saying, hey, can we set up an initial call? But obviously that recruiter's going to sit there and screen and kind of look from the surface. Does this look like it's a fit.

  [00:12:29] Mosah: So Bryan, there, there a lot of myths out there about recruiters, whether they be in-house corporate recruiters or, or sort of hired guns or agency recruiters, would you help demystify some of those things from the candidate’s perspective? You know, you probably get approached all the time by people who are nervous about either making outreach or who don't necessarily understand your rule and any general guidance for folks who are reaching out to recruiters.

  [00:12:56] Bryan: So I think one of the myths is that it's a recruiter's job to find a position for a job seeker. That's more from like the agency side of things where say like an agency recruiter is tasked to fill a position. And so it's not their job to necessarily find a position for the candidate. It's their task to fill a job.

  From the internal recruiter perspective, I think one of the myths is that the recruiters are very well connected to the position. If you think about just an average size company, you know, just say from a 100 to 500, you know, head count organization, if a recruiter is trying to fill, say 25 jobs, they're not going to know everything about each position.

  They're going to know just enough of what the basics are. So they're not going to have that deep intellectual conversation about the industry. They're not going to necessarily know what you do on a day-to-day basis. They're going to be able to understand, are you a culture fit? Do you meet the necessary background on the surface to get pushed on to the hiring manager for a conversation?

  [00:14:05] Mosah: Sure. And so that's a great segue into talking about screening calls. Screening calls happen for folks at all levels, probably less so at the executive level, but still that happens in a lot of organizations. Can you give some insight into what what's going on from a recruiter's perspective during one of those screening calls?

  Are they working their way down a rubric? Are they asking the same questions of the same candidate?

  [00:14:28] Bryan: So from my perspective right now, with the candidates I deal with, and then from the hiring managers perspective that I pass them on to within our industry, my initial screening calls are very much about, tell me about yourself.

  I want to get to know you as a person. I also want to get to know you as a professional. Tell me more about what are you doing in your current job right now? I want to understand what do you like about your job? What don't you like about your job? Because if everything were perfect, we would not be on a phone call, right?

  I want to understand a lot of the nuances of what you're doing in a day-to-day basis, but I also want to understand how has your job changed over the last six months or 12 months? But if you and I are to not move forward with this, what are you going to do different in your job for the next six or 12 months?

  How is your job going to change? I give my notes to say a hiring manager and then that hiring manager will screen. And they'll probably ask a lot of the questions. Tell me about what you're doing on a day-to-day basis. I want to hear some of the metrics and some of the numbers you're trying to achieve in your position.

  And a lot of times I will sync up with that hiring manager after their interview to figure out this is what I was told, does everything align is everything in sync.

  [00:15:44] Mosah: So Bryan, you probably get contacted by a number of candidates from a wide variety of sectors who see that you're a recruiter and they think you can help them either network with other recruiters or get placed into one of your job openings. You share a little bit about what that experience is like for you and how you can, and sometimes how you can't maybe necessarily help everyone who makes outreach.

  [00:16:09] Bryan: So I get contacted by a lot of candidates that are going to be within my industry.

  Those are the types of candidates that I can help. And when I say help, it might be something where I can place them in the right position. But there are times where a lot of the candidates I have conversations with, I cannot help them find a job, but I can at least kind of point them in the right direction or path and just give some type of guidance.

  You know, one of the common myths, I think that there is in the industry is that any recruiter should be able to help me in my job search. That is not necessarily a true statement. I think you want to find someone who specializes in what you do. Uh, they have some kind of expertise within your industry. A lot of times, recruiters who are very good at helping a certain industry have legitimate work experience within that industry.

  When I have candidates contact me. It's a lot of me trying to find out what are you looking for? What is that next position going to look like what's missing within your role right now. And so when I have candidates contact me that are not within my expertise, I simply have to tell them I really can't help you because that's, that's not within what I do.

  I wouldn't be doing you a service.

  [00:17:23] Mosah: You talked about referrals and you talked a little bit about connections, both online and making inroads into other folks, what happens when I call you? And I say, Hey, Bryan, I've got someone who's in your industry who is a high-quality candidate.

  [00:17:39] Bryan: So someone like yourself, you know, I mean, obviously, cause I know you, I trust you.

  I know you're a true professional and I know what you're doing at top talent advocates. That's obviously something that I feel like it's been pre0vetted. So I know it's a person who is at least interested, they're engaged, they're motivated. These are all things that a recruiter would look for. And when it comes from a trusted source as a referral, that's something that I want to take on and make it one of my primary focus is because not only do I want to deliver for this person, but I obviously I want to deliver for you,

  [00:18:15] Mosah: Bryan, I imagined in your work you're, you're having hundreds if not thousands of calls a year with candidates, you're probably emailing and texting with them all the time. I know you work often 14, 16 hours a day.

  In your interactions with clients can you, can you share a little bit about the folks who make outreach to you or who you speak with who you can't necessarily help? What's some guidance for those folks?

  [00:18:37] Bryan: So to the candidates that contact me and first off you're right, I probably would have thousands of conversations a year and you can obviously only help a subset of those conversations or of those candidates.

  And a lot of times I'll qualify the candidates for, you know, what do you want to do? And what's your background. And I may not be the right fit. So what I try to do for those candidates that I can't help, I'll try to make an introduction to somebody else in my network that I think could possibly help that person, because that could be a great relationship or down the line.

  But also, I might kind of encourage that person to maybe reach out to another recruiter that I don't know, it might be somebody with a different expertise, but also I might kinda let that person know to, Hey, you should probably reach out independently. You should apply for these types of positions and let them know that like a recruiter partnership is great, but it may not be for everybody.

  And it might be something that you need to pursue this one independently.

  [00:19:37] Mosah: In addition to speaking to thousands of people and emailing with thousands of people a year, um, you really have a unique vantage point in that you get to look at their content, right? You get to look at their tools for applying to jobs. So that's LinkedIn that’s cover letters, that's resumes. And so what I'm hoping we can do in the course of the next few minutes.

  Is from a recruiter's perspective, highlight some of the things that jump out at you as, uh, necessities for those types of tools and things that jump out at you as red flags and things you want to run away from, or, or things that should not ever go on to those types of documents. So let's start with LinkedIn.

  How important is LinkedIn to getting hired or recruiting?

  [00:20:23] Bryan: I think it's essential. And obviously I use LinkedIn every day, use it on my computer. I use it on my, you know, my mobile devices and whatnot. I'm literally constantly sourcing even when I'm just sitting on the couch. So I can tell you that from a recruiter's perspective, it's a necessary tool.

  Therefore, from a candidate’s perspective, who is searching, it's a necessary tool. I mean, candidates really should use LinkedIn to tell their own individual story and build their brands. And when they do that, it's really important that they know their audience. So no two LinkedIn profiles should be the exact same, like no two attorney should have the same LinkedIn profile depending on what your specialty is.

  If you're a CFO of a certain level of company, like a fortune 500 company will probably look different than a CFO for a company with under a hundred people. But know the key words of your industry that are going to get somebody's attention because a recruiter is going to search off of keywords. And so when I look at someone's LinkedIn profile, I'm looking for keywords, but at the same time, I'm also trying to look at just very small specifics, like, you know, for me and the insurance and risk management industry, I'm looking for like, you know, Hey, what's your focus?

  Is it workers' compensation? Is it property and casualty? Is it general liability? You know, do they know certain types of software like applied epic? These are things that I look for to know is this person going to be within the wheelhouse that I could help out.

  [00:21:56] Mosah: You've touched on it a little bit, but can you describe what a good LinkedIn profile and presence is for a candidate?

  What are some of those absolute essentials?

  [00:22:05] Bryan: So LinkedIn does a pretty good job I think of helping you build out like a profile. I mean, if you go on to create one they’ll obviously walk you through the steps of creating one. That's not complicated, but definitely trying to make a very complete robust profile is what's going to help take your job search or just build your network to do a job search eventually to that next level.

  And it's focusing on everything from having a good profile headshot to writing a really good headline to writing a summary, whether it's in the first person or the third person, just giving a little bit of a synopsis about yourself. One of the worst things that I think a candidate can do is just have a very incomplete profile, because if you have someone who's going to have to make assumptions on, are you the right candidate or not?

  A recruiter is going to look at that and ask themselves, is this person even active on LinkedIn? Is this person even worth the reach out? Because a good recruiter is not just going to blast several messages to, you know, multiple people. They're going to fine tune.

  [00:23:13] Mosah: Can you describe the process that you go through to utilize LinkedIn when searching for candidates?

  So as a candidate, it's obvious that we build our profiles. You know, use our keywords to try to attract and highlight our areas of competence, but it'd be interesting for our listeners to understand what it seems like or what it looks like from a recruiter's perspective. How do you use that tool to find the right talent?

  [00:23:41] Bryan: So many candidates may not know that LinkedIn has a paid service, a paid product called LinkedIn recruiter. And it's something that helps me as a recruiter. Where I can fine tune based on job title, whether it's their current job title or their past job title, a keyword search, anything within a geographical search of a certain mile radius, any target schools or anything based on level of education.

  Also, I can search based on, you know, how many years of experience, which I think is one of the best things, because I would want to weed out people for a senior level position that only have two years of experience. So it helps build this like fine-tuned pipeline where I can go scroll through candidate’s profiles, and it'll show me where this person has met that match.

  So when I build out a search and I do this almost daily, that's how I will kind of fine tune from, start to finish. And then I'll build a pipeline of those candidates and I'll kind of contact them, you know, throughout the day or throughout a week or so, but also one of the things that like this LinkedIn recruiter tool will do is that as people update or as they change their LinkedIn profile to meet that search, I'll get notified.

  [00:25:03] Mosah: Can you shed some light on, on the advantages of being present and active in different LinkedIn groups. So sort of the online communities. And then if you might also share a little bit about content, it's not just about someone's profile often, it's about either thought leadership or content that they're posting or reposting.

  Can you explain to us a little bit how that looks and feels from a recruiter's perspective?

  [00:25:28] Bryan: So funny enough, sometimes a lot of LinkedIn groups, so I'm a part of some for like a global insurance and risk management, but there are some groups that actually don't want recruiters to be involved within that because it's nothing more than a poaching tool for a recruiter.

  And some of the people that moderate these groups only want it to be for sharing of ideas and sharing of content and essentially building the network, building the presence, but also just kind of moving that industry forward with just good thought leadership and just thought-provoking ideas. But those LinkedIn groups are, I mean, they're great.

  I mean, it's great to meet new people. It's great to build a network that way. It's great to learn something new that you wouldn't have learned before.

  [00:26:12] Mosah: And Bryan, what about content on LinkedIn and individual candidates’ ability to highlight their skills, um, viewpoints connections through posting of their own content?

  Is that something that you'd suggest to candidates?.

  [00:26:26] Bryan: I always like to see someone's individual content contributions, because, and there's a number of things. Number one, it just lets me know, what are you interested in? What are some of the thought-provoking things that you can put out there and also lets me see someone's writing skills and writing ability and how they communicate at the same time.

  I also love it when they share articles and give any kind of insight, because think about all the content, all the articles that you see on LinkedIn, you probably don't have time to read all of that, but it gives you a really good synopsis from someone's point. So I always look for people in terms of how active are they by the content that they share, what type of content do they share?

  And from a recruiter's perspective too, I also look at, in the last 12 months, how many times did you post.

  [00:27:11] Mosah: Why is that important to you? You know, I advise my clients that posting consistently and posting thoughtfully, it’s a good way to let the world not only know your viewpoint, but also in some cases to get noticed.

  Right? You're showing up in people's feeds differently when you're posting that content. And particularly the use of hashtags allows people to draw an audience to them. So that's always been my view. And I'm curious to know how you see that topic.

  [00:27:38] Bryan: I love it when I see people that post frequent, I mean, the more often than somebody posts it lets me know that they're, they're an active user.

  And so if I were ever to engage with that person, they're more likely to respond and it may not be the response that I want, but they're more likely to at least respond. I've noticed the people who are more active with the content that they share, I am much more able to reach out to that person and at least get a referral.

  So a lot of times those are the people that I'll at least approach and say, Hey, I got this position, I know this is not a fit for you, but who do you know in your network that might be interested in something like this? And I'd tell you that there are actually candidates or shouldn't say candidates, but there are people that I've reached out to on LinkedIn that I've never tried to place, but I've literally gotten three, four or five referrals.

  [00:28:28] Mosah: Right. So it really is about being an active member of the online community. And, and some, some cases it's helpful to you as an individual. In other cases, it's helpful in, uh, getting noticed. And so if this is a fair synopsis, Bryan, when you're looking at people's activity, it's that activity that allows you to engage in them and potentially either find other candidates or for their own purposes, connect with someone who might be able to be helpful to them.

  So Bryan, your database is filled with resumes. Um, your applicant tracking system is probably bubbling over with them and looking at thousands of these a year, and maybe you've crossed the mark of a hundred thousand in your career already. What's some guidance that you can give candidates and our listeners on what are the hallmarks of a high-quality resume?

  What does it contain? What does it look like to you for our executive level jobs?

  [00:29:25] Bryan: So to me, it starts with the very small things that someone may not look at right away, but I think formatting is critical and just making everything look very neat, very clean. And to me, when I see a very properly formatted resume, that is the first step that I look at to say that, hey, this, person's got some good confidence and putting like a resume together.

  I also look for things that are just, you know, keywords or I guess, um, I've also heard it called power words in the industry. Just action verbs throughout the resume. That kind of let me know how did you contribute to something and say like a director level or above, or, you know, CFO or something as an example, I always look for not just the quantitative stats but I want to see what's the clarity behind those stats. When I read resumes, I like to be able to look at what this person contribute and how can I quantify what they did, but how does that benchmark?

  [00:30:23] Mosah: Yeah, so that's a great segue. You know, I, I coach our clients on the star methodology for answering behavioral based questions during interviews and you know, the S standing for situation T for task A for action and R for result.

  And I can't tell you how many people come to Top Talent with resumes that focus on the S the T the A, but not the R and really it's the R that someone wants to hire them for. And so you just brought up a really interesting point on the content of showing statistics and quantifying results and outcomes.

  What are your thoughts around that? Making sure that you're highlighting those results, how do you view that.

  [00:31:05] Bryan: So I always love it when a resume focuses on just the result. And then I can kind of look at what's the result, but then in that section of their resume could kind of help show me how did that person take action?

  So if they said something like, Hey, I increased views on a website by, you know, 10,000. Great. I see that but then it also would tell me, how did you do it. Right.

  [00:31:30] Mosah: So it's important to have both parts, but without the result, it's hard to see why that person deserves a second. Look, is that a fair assumption?

  Absolutely.

  [00:31:40] Mosah: So when you're looking at a candidates resume, what are some things that jump out at you as things not to do? I see resumes all the time that come to me from people who are making lots of money and really high positions that have anything from their photo on it to colored graphics, to lots of lines that segment it into odd formats.

  Um, those are some of the things that jump out at me, but I'm curious to know from your vantage point, what are some of the things that are turn-offs to you?

  [00:32:06] Bryan: If I ever see the words references available upon request. I laugh inside at first.

  [00:32:14] Mosah: What about, um, Microsoft skills? Are those important these days Bryan?

  [00:32:19] Bryan: I, I would be really concerned, uh, when people put that they know Microsoft office, I'm, I'm actually more concerned if someone doesn't know Microsoft office in 2022, but in all seriousness, one of my biggest pet peeves, I probably wouldn't see this for a manager level or above, but when people copy paste, from one job to the next, their job duties.

  What you're telling an employer there is that you did the same thing at your last two jobs, and therefore I'm gonna do the exact same thing at your job. It just shows very little effort was put in your resume and your job search. I think a common mistake that I run into is if a candidate has really good credentials, they don't put a lot into their resume because they feel like my credentials are gonna carry me through.

  Your resume or a cover letter is going to at least get you that initial interview, your interview skills should match, you know, your credentials and your resume should not be any different. Another common mistake I think people make is everybody wants to use like a resume template or people want to have a custom-made resume.

  And for a lot of positions, it's going to sit inside an applicant tracking system and that applicant tracking system is going to parse your resume into this database. And so you want certain things to be pulled out like contact information or email. It's really important that it's not something that's like a scanned copy that can't be parsed properly.

  And so I always tell candidates, make a simple resume, make it functional, utilize the white space well.

  [00:34:03] Mosah: There are a lot of ways for people to share with a recruiter and share with a prospective employer details about themselves, resume, LinkedIn, cover letter. Can you share a little bit about the differences between those, how a recruiter or how a hiring company might view each and the differences between how each of those should be presented?

  [00:34:25] Bryan: So I would tell candidates to not copy paste information from LinkedIn to a resume and to a cover letter. They should all be treated separately. I look at LinkedIn and your profile as kind of your own personal brand. It's your mantra. Tell us a little bit about you as a person. And the resume should be more about what are some of the objectives that you achieved in each position and how have you gone from point a to point B throughout your career?

  A lot of people don't give cover letters as much merits, but I still read them, but I don't get a lot of cover letters for the position. It mostly about the resume and LinkedIn for me. But for a cover letter, I've always looked at it as just something a little bit extra about what you did in some kind of position that isn't on the resume or isn't on the LinkedIn, or, you know, what's your interest in the position or why do you think you'd be a good fit?

  So that's how I look at all three and how they should be tailored accordingly.

  [00:35:29] Mosah: So Bryan, lots of times recruiters make outreach, but they're also receiving calls inbound, if you will. So I want to talk a little bit about when it's appropriate for a candidate to connect with the recruiter, what's the best way for them to do that. How would someone make outreach to you? And when is that appropriate?

  [00:35:47] Bryan: I get contacted by candidates all the time through LinkedIn or email. Obviously we have our company website and a lot of times people will go there and they'll see jobs and they'll send in their interest. When I talk to these candidates, a lot of times it's for an immediate opening, but sometimes it's for something where we kind of build that relationship over the course of a couple of months before I placed him or her into a position.

  I always tell candidates when they come to me, I want to know what are you doing right now? What are you looking to do? What kind of change are you looking to make what's missing from your current position and what, what is that job satisfaction going to look like in your next step?

  [00:36:25] Mosah: When can a recruiter not be helpful to a candidate, even if that candidate is a high-quality individual or, or might be top of their game, when would a recruiter not be able to help.

  [00:36:38] Bryan: Well, two things. One is it's a recruiter's job to fill positions for a client. It's not just to get the candidate that position. So I will sometimes have candidates who will call me and say, Hey, I'm looking, I'm already applied to these five places. Can you help me get in there? Once you, as a candidate have submitted your resume to an employer, there's typically a window.

  Of time where it's blocked, where the recruiter cannot approach that organization. So I have to tell candidates if you've already searched for a job for say six months, and you've blasted your resume to other recruiters, or you've blasted your resume to an employer, I probably can't help you. I can give you advice, but I will probably not be able to do something for you personally.

  From a recruiter's perspective too, if a candidate has been looking for six months and blasted the resume out there, and nothing's happened with them that obviously raises an eyebrow, a red flag to know why have you been on the market for this long and what's going on in your job, sir?

  [00:37:41] Mosah: Bryan, can you give a little bit of insight into what candidates need to be doing beyond talking to recruiters, recruiters have a subset of the job market, but they're not necessarily in control of all of it.

  In fact, I'd say that they're in charge of by, by all accounts, probably 20% of it at the executive level. What would you do if you were a candidate looking for a job?

  [00:38:03] Bryan: So, if I were looking for a job today, number one, I would make sure my LinkedIn profile is up-to-date and that it just looks good. I might even contact a LinkedIn profile expert who does, you know, profile reviews and they do like profile building.

  That's really important. I would contact somebody like yourself, Mosah and say, hey you know, I trust you you're you have a high business acumen, you know a lot of people, what do you think of my profile? And I would literally pay somebody to help build that out. I would then, you know, create a resume and make sure that's up to date.

  And I would also kind of start just like reaching out to some people in my network and say hey, I'm looking for X, Y, Z. But before I even do that, I would probably just have career conversations just to get my mind in the right capacity to know that, you know, I know that maybe I'm looking for a job or I'm going to start that career search.

  I just want to have some of those conversations up front before I actually do it. I always tell candidates one of the worst things that you can do is just go start blasting your resume out there and start looking for a job.

  [00:39:11] Mosah: How important is it for, for someone to work their network and to be connected with new folks who may or may not be recruiters?

  [00:39:19] Bryan: It's important to connect with almost anyone that you feel could essentially kind of point you in the right direction and just give you good advice. I mean, there are people that when I got into recruiting, I was nervous because I hadn't done it before. I mean, I knew I was going to be successful because I hadn't failed in a job before, but I didn't know what that was going to look like.

  So before I took a job in recruiting, I actually went out and talked to people that I knew who were actual recruiters. Who've been doing it for a while. Or I even talked to the ones that just recently made the leap within a few years and asked them what was it like? What was that transition period like from your past jobs?

  What skills that you built helped you carry through? And to candidates who are looking in a similar field, the same thing, you know, someone who's taking the, going from a director position to like a vice-president or to a CFO position, they're going to be stepping into their first leadership job.

  Talk to people who have done that before. And what that's going to look like.

  [00:40:21] Mosah: And from those kinds of conversations, those, uh, informational interviews or that networking, is that something that you find and have observed people are able to network themselves into opportunities?

  [00:40:34] Bryan: So a lot of times I think those candidates that get those next level positions, they're often coming from people that they know it's coming from within their network.

  It's referring. You know, when you apply for a position you're sitting in an applicant tracking system, keep in mind that if that job is open, there's a chance that that company might've already selected the candidate they want, they know who they want to hire, but by law and regulation, they have to post a job.

  And so when you're applying to a position, you know, it's important to know that, you know, well know as much as you can about the job, the company, but definitely you have to understand that most positions are going to be networked by people that they know.

  [00:41:18] Mosah: Yeah. So one of the things that I do with my clients all the time is when they applied to jobs or they have target companies is help make inroads into those companies because it's people that hire people.

  That's always been my sort of thought about the hiring process. And while there are recruiters out there who do a great job like yourself, of sourcing and identifying talent and who really do satisfy and meet a need. And you're one of the better ones that I know, how do you actually counsel clients or council candidates to build their network, because that's what I do for our candidates all the time is make introductions and help expand that network because it's going to be someone that hires them who more often than not, they've either been referred to or have gotten to know themselves.

  [00:42:06] Bryan: So for me and the insurance and risk management industry, one of the biggest things that candidates can do is get a designation. And so when they go get a designation it's being taught or it's, it's being pursued through an organization where other people are doing very similar things. So a lot of times I've talked to candidates who have met friends or mentors within those in the classes to pursue those designation.

  Also, you know, for example, in the insurance and risk management industry, there's just a lot of industry seminars that are being put on by other organizations or being put on by just thought leaders within the business. And I always tell candidates, go to those events as much as they can and kind of build that network and learn from people.

  That's a really good way for these candidates to learn. You know, who's heading this up or who's a mentor in this program and where do they start? So it kind of gives them a good career roadmap to follow and just think about.

  [00:43:06] Mosah: Bryan when, when the candidate is working with you to, to find their next opportunity.

  And it's obviously, uh, someone that you want to be working with so that that relationship has been sort of vetted and they have all the right tools and they're, they're off and running. Can you share a little bit about how best to work with a recruiter?

  [00:43:25] Bryan: I always tell candidates. One of the most important things you can do is just be transparent and be honest, because from the candidate’s perspective, understand that if a recruiter is trying to fill a position, they're having a dozen conversations in a given day or on a given week. And so I always tell candidates, make sure you're being very transparent. You're giving them all the information because you want to stand out amongst the other candidates that are, are being considered.

  And so of course, coming to the table with, you know, a Solid LinkedIn profile, a solid resume, you know, knowing your numbers when you have these kinds of conversations, but also being able, just to clarify, you know, why do you want this position? What's making you interested in it? So transparency is key. I always tell candidates that just make sure upfront you're, you're giving as much information as possible because a recruiter, you know, they're obviously tasked to fill a job, but they want to know if they can help you.

  And if they don't have all the information, they probably can't help.

  [00:44:22] Mosah: Bryan, if I were to introduce you to someone who I thought of as being a high-quality candidate and in your particular sector, there's a term in the recruiting industry called an MPC or a most placeable candidate. Can you share a little bit about what that means to you and what you do with those, those individuals who you might consider to be an MPC?

  [00:44:42] Bryan: So to me, uh, most placeable candidate is going to be somebody who number one is motivated. They have marketable skills, they are articulate. They know what they're looking for. They know why they're looking for that next step. But there's somebody that if you were to put them in front of a client, they're going to present well, they're going to interview well, they're not somebody who is just looking to take a counteroffer situation from their current employer.

  [00:45:08] Mosah: Bryan I often get asked to keep someone's search confidential. They're in a role where they're happy they are making a decent living, but they know that they want something more. They just don't want everyone else to know that they want that. And so can you talk a little bit about the confidentiality that you deploy when someone is looking, who has a role.

  [00:45:30] Bryan: I actually just spoke with a candidate yesterday who is a personal lines account manager. And they said the same thing. They've been with their employer for several years. They don't want their employer to know. And I let this candidate know I am not going to go blast your resume to new employers. What I like to do is I will physically call and email hiring authorities and HR contacts at agencies describing a person's skillset.

  What types of accounts they handle? What's their volume, all the metrics that would go in to, you know, what makes a good account manager candidate and describe that person and then understand. Do you have a need right now? Do you have an opening or is there one on the future? Because I always tell candidates that when I can go market a search for you confidentially, you're not walking into a desk or a position where somebody else was unsuccessful, whether they were quit are terminated.

  A lot of times, this is what gets employers motivated to create a position for somebody specifically. And I tell candidates you're going to be more successful in a position if it's created for you and not just a random opening.

  [00:46:43] Mosah: That's a great segue because I have to tell you that the best outcomes for clients that I work with, come through a network who works to create an opportunity for someone because they identify the talent that someone brings to the table.

  And even though they might not have had a job order or have created a job description for someone they're so impressed by the person or the ready for it, Bryan, top talent that's in front of them. They find a way to make sure that that person joins their organization in the right.

  You gave some great guidance on what you would be doing if you were looking for an executive level role and obviously working with recruiters is important. But can you shed a little light on the significance of networking. Not only with folks that you know, but maybe folks that you need to know.

  [00:47:32] Bryan: So, if I were looking for an executive position, I would spend a lot of time trying to build my network with people who are at a similar caliber or even a higher caliber than where I'm currently at.

  I would spend time reaching out to them, getting to know their background, you know, where they came from, how they started, how they got to that next level. And a lot of times, you know, I've had executive level candidates tell me that when they reach out to people in their network, they're asking questions of like, you know, you know, who did you connect with?

  What books did you read? What articles you know, were shared with you about companies who are hiring or just any kind of industry trends, analysis, forecasting.

  [00:48:11] Mosah: Bryan, you've worked with lots of candidates in the insurance and risk management sector. I know when you were in house, you worked obviously foreign insurance company, but you also worked with a number of different types of roles.

  Can you tell us about one of those stories that is inspiring for candidates about a job search or about someone that you were really impressed by? What, what qualities they displayed, sort of something that highlights how successful a candidate can.

  [00:48:37] Bryan: I placed a director of risk management for a large construction company about two years ago.

  And this candidate has since been promoted to the vice president of risk management for the overall organization. This candidate came to the table with a well put together resume, but also they had already contacted references that would most likely be, you know, reached out to during the whole entire process.

  They knew what they were looking for. They were very well-spoken and articulate. They knew all of the numbers of like their past success metrics. They had a story prepared for what made them go from job to job. Those are things I was really looking for and why I was impressed, but really they were motivated.

  So once they were able to interview with the client, they already knew everything about that employer. They knew all their financials. They knew who the executive leadership team was, and everything was just a smooth process from start to finish.

  [00:49:41] Mosah: So know your stuff when you're, when you're interviewing or when you're pursuing

  [00:49:44] Bryan: A hundred percent.

  And one of the best stories is with that place I actually went back and placed the risk manager for that person. So once they got promoted, they called me a few years later. And just recently this past year I placed a risk manager for them.

  [00:50:04] Mosah: Bryan, I often hear from clients the phrase, you know, finding a job is a full-time job.

  And while certainly engaging the services of Top Talent Advocates can be helpful in alleviating elements of that and multiplying people's effectiveness in pursuing a new job, it really is quite an effort to find your next role often. I'm wondering if you might just share a few words about the effort or grit that candidates, regardless of whatever level they're at or regardless of the talent level that they bring to the table, what they need to be doing.

  [00:50:41] Bryan: Just being relentless, knowing that it's a marathon, not a sprint, you're not going to find your ideal job in a few days. And if you do find them in a few days, I would ask a lot of questions up front. It's going to take some time and definitely it's going to take a lot of grit, but that resiliency factor that you bring to the table is part of, what's going to drive you to find that next best opportunity.

  I always tell candidates that when you're going through this job search, be mindful to take care of yourself through this, whether it's, you know, not focusing so much, like not hyper focusing so much on it and trying to solve the problem immediately understand that it's going to take time, understand that, you know, building that network is going to take time.

  [00:51:30] Mosah: Bryan, any parting comments or words of wisdom for our listeners.

  [00:51:32] Bryan: No, I want to thank you for having me on, but, uh, mostly you've been a great friend for years and some of it I've always looked up to and I've always reached out to you for advice. You know, you're always been a person with a high business acumen, a great network here locally in Omaha, and just someone I've really, you know, known to, uh, grown to trust over the years.

  [00:51:52 Mosah: Thanks, Bryan. Really appreciate it. Thanks for all your insights and sense of humor throughout. I know our listeners are going to benefit from that. And if someone wants to contact you, should they contact you through LinkedIn?

  [00:52:02] Bryan: LinkedIn or email is wonderful.

  [00:52:05] Mosah: Great. We'll provide that on the website. Thanks so much, Bryan.

  Really appreciate it.

  [00:52:12] Richard: Thank you for joining us on Hiring Insights. Remember, you can learn more about Top Talent Advocates and listen to other episodes by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and click on the Podcast link.

  You can also email us at tta@toptalentadvocates.com.

Tom O'Connor, George Zaharatos, Lem Montgomery | Insights for Job Seekers and Hiring Managers

On the second episode of this two-part series of Hiring Insights, Mosah Fernandez Goodman sits down with Tom O’Connor, George Zaharatos, and Lem Montgomery.  Tom is the former Executive Vice President of Compliance & Ethics, EHS, ESG at Guardian Industries, George is the Principal-Global Data and Technology Leader for Trade and Customs at KPMG, and Lem is an attorney for Butler Snow, LLP. We focus the discussion on their insights into what it takes to be a successful candidate searching for an executive position in today’s job market.

• What you need as a job seeker in today’s market to get hired.  

• As an attorney, looking for a senior level role, whether that’s a firm partner or going in-house, what should you know starting your search?

• Social media plays a role in the hiring process today, but how much?

• The best c-level executives have these common traits…

• What NOT to say in an interview.

• Transcript

  [00:00:00] Richard: Welcome to Hiring Insights. The podcast that provides insight into the executive hiring process and experience, whether you are a job seeker, a people leader, a recruiter, an executive coach, or simply interested in talent, there is something here for you on the Hiring Insights. Today's episode is presented by Top Talent Advocates, where we advocate for executive and legal talent.

  You can learn more about Top Talent Advocates, listen to other episodes, and hire great talent by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and clicking on podcast. Now here's your host for Hiring Insights, Mosah Fernandez Goodman.

  Prior to the release of this episode, Tom O’Connor and Guardian Industries agreed on a mutual separation allowing Tom the time to travel south and spend much needed quality time with his ailing father.

  Mosah: [00:00:57] Tom, Lem, George, thank you so much for joining us for the second portion of your podcast and your episode of Hiring Insights. I know our listeners are thrilled with what they've learned from you in the first portion of the episode, and now we're gonna be moving on to some insights for job seekers and insights for hiring managers, but for those who are just catching this episode, not necessarily as familiar with each of you as I am or as listeners to the first episode, I'm hoping that you might reintroduce yourselves to our audience. So let's start with Tom. Tom, who are you? Where do you work, and why do you love what you do? And then we'll work our way around.

  Tom: [00:01:35] I am Tom O'Connor. I'm the Vice President of Compliance and Ethics, uh, eh and s and stewardship for one of Koch Industries recently acquired, uh, facilities or, or companies in, in Michigan. I've been with Koch for about 25 years. Been a practicing lawyer for good, gracious over 30 years now. And avid New York Mets fan and, uh, avid history reader. So thanks for having me.

  Mosah: [00:02:00] Yeah, appreciate it. Thanks so much, Tom. Lem?

  Lem: [00:02:03] I'm Lem Montgomery.

  I'm from Madison, Mississippi. I'm a member of the Butler Snow Law Firm. We started in Mississippi, but we're now, 350 plus attorneys, 17 plus offices strong. We're primarily in the Southeastern United States, including a couple of international offices. Spent my career of 20 years at Butler Snow doing litigation and trial work.

  Starting with products liability and civil rights work, litigation, and finally, catastrophic claims and defensive, catastrophic cases, litigation cases. So thanks for having me.

  Mosah: [00:02:41] Thanks so much for being here, Lem. Appreciate it. And George.

  George: [00:02:45] Hey Mosah. Uh, glad to be here. My name is George Zaharatos.

  I'm a partner with the Trade-in Customs Group here at KPMG. I'm a licensed US Customs broker. I'm based in Atlanta with my family. Um, I've been with the firm 18 years. I've traveled over 30 countries visiting, you know, sites that produce goods that are imported into the US and exported from the US, diverse amount of experiences, uh, handling anything from imports and duties to export sanctions and embargoes, um, forced labor type of work with US customs.

  Um, just very interesting stuff that keeps me going every day and I’m glad to be here.

  Mosah: [00:03:29] Thanks so much. And I heard you're also a MET fan, is that right?

  George: [00:03:31] That is right. That is right. And you're outnumbered today, Mosah.

  Mosah: [00:03:34] Okay, alright, I’ll try not to hold that against you and throw you the Met friendly questions.

  Okay. As high level of summaries you might be able to provide, could you just give us your sense for what the job market looks like now at the executive level primarily, but what do you see and what, what's your perception of it here in 2023?

  Tom: [00:03:54] I think a lot of companies still deal with post covid issues, right?

  We, where I am, you know, dealing with coming back to the office and the office environment is, uh, is a struggle for some, for some people. But look, connectivity is much different than it, than it ever was in the past, and like for my team example, we're scattered throughout the world. So staying connected with those individuals is, is absolutely critical.

  As far as hiring is concerned, I think, um, certainly from our end, we're being a lot more pragmatic in our approach and how we look at positions that we need, who we hire, and that kind of thing. Really going through requisitions for positions and determining someone who we bring in needs to bring a comparative advantage to us to drive a competitive advantage. And everything that emanates from that is really what we're focused on. Not necessarily having a, a skill set that we're looking for, but we're looking for the right cultural fit, the right individuals to come and join us. And from my perspective, from my team, I don't have open positions I don't have closed positions.

  If someone's gonna bring someone to the table, I will have room for them. I will find a spot for them. In the same sense, if someone's not aligned with our principles and our culture, then they really need to make those tough employment decisions earlier than later.

  Mosah: [00:05:10] Tom, you, that's really interesting.

  So you're the type of executive who, if you find the right talent, regardless of whether or not there's a quote unquote open position or a slot, it sounds like there's an opportunity there, which is something that our clients find often, right? Is maybe it's not a position that's been posted, but it's the right person who can add a tremendous amount of value.

  So, the same question to you George and Lem. Hopefully hoping one of you, and maybe it's back to you, Tom can build on that concept of just finding the great talent for the right role.

  Tom: [00:05:42] I've inherited a couple other capabilities since I've been at Guardian, and one of 'em, an employee was joining us before I inherited that, that particular capability.

  But when she got here, I realized that her skillset didn't lend itself to what we thought we needed. A position was almost created for her based on her skillset and her knowledge. She's one of the best employees that I've got right now. In fact, my three top employees that I've got all came from different roles, different responsibilities within the organization, but they had that drive, they had that vision, they had that connectivity with our businesses that are absolutely critical.

  So yeah, we've got room for anyone who's willing to contribute.

  Mosah: [00:06:20] George, Lem things to add?

  George: [00:06:23] Uh, I do, I think it's different for talent coming straight outta school than it would be for executives. You know for new entrants to the market the job market right now, I think, you know, there's a need for mentorship.

  There's hands-on learning, you know, so I do see more of our new hires wanting to be in the office. Folks, you know, that were able to live through the covid, you know, work from home period, found that that may be a, a more optimal state. I mean, you know, aren't returning as fast but the younger, you know, just coming out of college group is uh, taking more to the fact that it's easier to learn when you're physically together and able to work out problems to solutions.

  On the executive front its versatility, I think, being able to navigate everything that's going on right now. I'll give you an example and you know; I did do some research before to see if KB&G had done any specific surveys on talent and recruiting.

  And we had a survey that was sent out, it's called Tax Reimagined 2022 Perspectives from the C-Suite. And it did include a lot of the C-suite saying that they look for candidates that have, um, data and analytics experience, cloud experience, things that you know, you wouldn't have really heard of 10 years ago.

  And I think, you know, the versatility that executives need to have is to be understanding of how you could use these different tools so that they can meet objectives in the marketplace today. And you know how you can actually review the people's work when they're using those tools. Right. How do you know if the data and analytics that are used are right.

  So there's, there's, um, a lot that executives need to do today that we didn't need to do you know, 10, 20 years ago. And you know, I think our range has to be a lot wider in order for us to succeed. Where before it was like you could be extremely focused and deep in a certain area and still be, you know, great at what you do.

  Today you need to focus on being a people manager, a data manager, um, you know, making sure to understand how diverse your team is and, and the benefits of it. And, and being able to navigate what we're still working with, which Tom already mentioned, which is you know, people not wanting to be in the work office, in the traditional workspace on a daily basis.

  Mosah: [00:08:58] Lem I'm gonna ask you a little bit of a different question. About half of our client base are attorneys, and that's about the listenership to this podcast. So I'm wondering if someone is looking for a more senior level role, perhaps a partner with a portable book of business, or sort of that senior level associate, what advice would you give to them as they're starting their job search?

  Right. They're looking to join a firm like yours or, or looking to maybe even go in-house, which I know, you know a lot of clients who probably make that transition at some point in their career, as Tom did and, and other folks. Um, and then we'll come back to Tom and George and hear from them about how they wanna manage or how they think people should manage their job search.

  But what simple, clear advice would you give to someone who's starting that search?

  Lem: [00:09:42] Well, I can tell you all law firms at times hire based on need. We do it, other firms do it. So if there's a need for attorneys to service clients, if there's a need for an attorney with a certain practice, firms will go out and recruit those attorneys with that practice or with that skill set.

  And that's one way you market yourself, is you can look introspectively at what you're able to offer, whether it's a certain client or client base or a certain skill set, and try to find a firm that matches that need. You know, right now, uh, firms are projecting a need to hire. I think it's probably a you know, a good time for attorneys who are looking to make a change or looking to find a, uh, a career at mode.

  But I'll tell you, our firm, it's always, you know, we don't just hire based on need. Uh, sort of to Tom's point, if we find the attorney fits our culture. We'll make that higher, whether there's a current need or not. Uh, for our firm, it's always been about our clients' needs and interests first. It's all about client service.

  Client service is preeminent. And then there's also, there is a culture here at our firm that it has to be a match when we make a hire. So when we find attorneys that have the right kind of practice, the right kind of skillset, they're a cultural fit and they frankly fit into the family, the law firm hires, but it's based on practice group needs a lot of times.

  And so, for example, we just found a young lawyer who's starting tomorrow, who was a perfect fit, and she's coming in and we wouldn't have passed her up. You know, it was, it's such a good fit. We would've hired whether there's a need or not. And so I would say the advice would be, you know, understand what your skills are.

  Understand what you have to offer and be honest about that with both, with yourself and with the potential employer, the law firm. But also listen carefully to law firms when they talk about their culture and the way they service clients and the way they interact with one another and compensate one another.

  The firm principles, usually firms are founded on a certain set of principles are on a certain culture, and make sure that you fit with that and make sure that where you want to be and that's the culture you want to be in. And then if it is, make sure they understand that you're interested and that you're in for that.

  And that's the way I think, uh, firms marry up with new talent. That's the best way if you're looking for, you know, long-term retention of talent and attorneys who are gonna be lifelong members, that's usually the way it starts.

  Mosah: [00:12:19] That’s tremendous. Thanks so much, Lem really appreciate it.

  Tom: [00:12:22] Real quick, and in that score, I will, the advice that I would give to someone is understand fully. Understand yourself.

  Why is it that you're looking to make this career change or this job change? Is it money? Probably not. It's probably about appreciation. Are you appreciated? Do you appreciate the company? Are you committed to them? Are they committed to you? That's usually what drives these things, but really, soul served there and make sure that what you, what it is that you're looking and where you're going, that you're dissatisfied where you are and there's an opportunity for you.

  Mosah: [00:12:55] So for those of you who are hiring talent and looking to bring on talent, curious to know how, how you think social media plays a role in your process and your decision making. Any tidbits to share? Tom, Lem?

  Tom: [00:13:09] Well I could, I could tell you Mosah from someone who was a, a bit of a novice in the area.

  Where my children are, route experts in it. I will tell you that anything that is out there in the ether on, on social media will be found by your prospective employer. Not, not that you shouldn't have an opinions, you should have some strong opinions. Just make sure that you understand that the position you take may not be shared by everyone else.

  We look at that. I certainly look at that. I want to know an individual. What they're holding themselves out to be. Now, from my perspective, I don't, to be quite honest, I don't find social media, whether it be LinkedIn or any other social media platform to be terribly useful in my analysis as to whether someone should join us.

  It, it more is a detractor than it is a benefit.

  Mosah: [00:13:55] Got it, really good point. Thank you Tom. Lem, anything to add on the social media?

  Lem: [00:14:00] I personally think social media is an invaluable tool for applicants, but it's just that. It's just one tool. It opens up lines of communication and contacts that just didn't exist, uh, when I was involved in the job search.

  Uh, it's an excellent research tool. It's a way to see people who are in various industries and see what people are talking about and what they're interested in, uh, what's trending about employers and job seekers, though it's a real finger on the pulse of the job market and industry groups that shouldn't be ignored. But I think social media alone is just not a substitute for networking and personal contact and traditional job application, uh, followed by in-person interviews.

  You know, when it comes to the actual process of finding and pursuing a job opportunity at a specific company, I think the employer wants their applicants to follow their process. And I think, they invest in hiring through their own channels and you have to work within those channels to be competitive. So I would say use it, uh, learn from it, use it for research.

  Use it to make contacts. You want to be serious about, uh, marketing yourself for a job, especially with a specific company. You've gotta go through their channels and you've got to go through the classic application process that's out there. I'm not sure that you know, your profile on LinkedIn as, especially as a new young applicant has that much of an impact on helping you get a job.

  I mean, it needs to be, you know, you, you need to pay attention to it, but, while it, you know, it needs to be there and it, you know, it can be somewhat of a help. Although not too much in my opinion. I think it, it can, if you're not careful, a major detraction depending on what you decide to post.

  So if you're in the job market, you gotta know it's an absolute a hundred percent guarantee that employers are going to research your social media accounts and see what you have out there. And if you know things that, that portray you in a negative way, you gonna definitely hurt the job search. And so you've gotta pay attention to that.

  Mosah: [00:16:01] This question's really focused, um, and directed towards Tom and George. A lot of folks that are listening to this episode either wanna move in-house as an attorney or rising through the ranks, most likely the type of people who are your clients, George. So I guess I'm looking to understand and to have some light shed on the fact of, you know, your views and insights into the hiring process.

  So what, what are some of the things that each of you are looking for to gauge talent and understand about a candidate when they're in front of you? What are, what are just some of those things that you're always looking for?

  George: [00:16:35] Well Mosah, I could start and most, you know, just so you know my team is made up of attorneys, could be, um, trade attorneys, human rights attorneys, CPAs, previous customs officials.

  So really diverse group. When I work with my team and they connect with our clients. It's because of their experiences and it's because of, you know, um, the fact that, you know, our client base, the executives we work with, they’re not all the same. They all have their own story and their own journey.

  What's important when I see the folks that we're working with, um, c-level executives, is that they all have a few traits that are common for me. When I speak to 'em, they're extremely good listeners. The other thing is that they ask really good questions. They're alert, they're present.

  The other thing that's important to me that I see from all of them is that they're empathetic. They actually, you know, take time to think about what is it that their team is thinking and how is it that their team could function better? I think Tom, made a point earlier that said, you know, you leverage strengths.

  It's not that people are no good generally, it's that maybe they're not put to the right task. And so I think a good leader, you know, identifies folks and is able to build them up and, and pull 'em up as they're rising up, to be able to address, some of the objectives at hand. And not everybody is perfect at everything, so you need to be able to recognize when your team needs to be adjusted slightly to, to meet those answers,

  Mosah: [00:18:25] George, you know, those answers are almost word for word some of the guidance that Bill George, who, I'm not sure if you're familiar with him or not, but former CEO of Medtronic and, uh, Goldman Sachs, board member Target. He was our first guest on the, on the podcast.

  Um, it’s funny to watch that advice come full circle, right? And then, um, you know, being empathetic and figuring out how to maximize their teams in a really holistic way that I think that's consistent from, from not only your vantage point in the consulting world, but also from his vantage point.

  So thanks so much for that opportunity to bring it full circle. Tom?

  Tom: [00:19:00] Yeah, Mosah, so just building on what, what George mentioned there, you know, by the time a candidate gets in for the interview, right, you've got the skillset set, it's come across, we know you've got the skillset. You've got it. I want to hear it though.

  I want to hear the passion that led you to where you are sitting before us and having a conversation. Uh, it's important that you don't fake you. Don't come in with something you think we want to hear, be you, be genuine. But connect us to those opportunities that have led you to where we are and what we need.

  A lot of people call that now, the behavior-based interviewing process, and yeah, we engage in that. We certainly do. But, but it's to drive the conversation. I'm not so much interested in the situation, behavior, and outcome of this specific story you're telling. I wanna know what impact it had on you and how you came to be and how these, these competing interests arrived at your decision making and what you learned from it, particularly the ones that you, that you failed. Be conversational, be present, and don't fake you.

  Mosah: [00:20:05] Couldn't have said it any better, Tom. So great. That's the authenticity and genuineness of people, um, is easily detected, right? So you, you wanna be yourself and come and, and come and present yourself exactly as you are, cuz that's who you're gonna be working with and that's how you wanna be known and perceived.

  So, great, great words, great insights there. Thanks Tom. I'm gonna start with Lem and we're gonna kind of do a rapid fire here on, um, what is the biggest red flag you see when you're talking to someone? Not necessarily coaching them on, on how to avoid it, but what are some of those-oh, I can't believe someone said that.

  Or I can't believe someone, you know, views themselves in that way. Just some horror stories. So, Lem, the litigator over to you. What's a red flag you've seen in your experience?

  Lem: [00:20:54] Yeah. So, uh, I think the general way to say it's just an immature approach to the position. You know, candidates who come in and they're more concerned about what office and what town they're gonna be in.

  You know, we've heard 'em say, because I like to, yeah, I like to go see bands and so I wanna be in the Nashville office. You know, nothing, it's less about the law firm, more about location. Hyper focus on compensation over, you know, what the law firm does. It's not that those are unfair questions.

  You know, we encourage everybody to be direct. You can tell the difference in one direct conversation about that versus it consumes the whole interview. We hire lawyers with the expectation that they'll be partners and if they come through and say, hey, I'm just in this gig for a couple of years, then on to politic, you know, that that's a major red flag.

  So it's, you know, again, we hire with the expectation that these are gonna be our partners one day. I want to hear why you want to be a lawyer. You've done all this work; you've graduated in the very top of your class. You're clearly able to, why do you want to do it? And why do you want to do it here? Is it because of some frivolous reason that doesn't matter to us?

  Or are you really invested in what we're doing and who we are? And so answers that shy away from that, answers that invest in us and tell us you're a fit for us and we're a fit for you, and you have a passion and a reason to be doing this that fits with our firm's purpose and culture, that's on the money.

  That's what we're looking for.

  Mosah: [00:22:23] Perfect. Thanks so much Lem. George or Tom, horror stories, insights, things to to keep in mind?

  Tom: [00:22:30] I’ll hit this real quick. Um, there's a fine line between confidence and arrogance. I know we've all, we've all met the individual who's come in supremely confident, but it bleeds into arrogance.

  It's always those, you know, those behavior-based questions that I, that we talked about earlier where the individual took a big pile of mess that somebody else created and fixed it. And that's the only thing you ever get. You never get the real self-inflection of how I could have improved in what I did. And arrogance comes across and it's a killer.

  Mosah: [00:23:03] George?

  George: [00:23:05] There is a sense of an investment that we make in folks as well, and we want that investment to play out. Um, and you, you don't want someone who's going to come in thinking that they know more than everybody else. So mine is, is a little bit different in that I, I always look for whether or not folks are gonna be good team players.

  Um, are they gonna be collaborative? Are they gonna work together with my team properly? Are they gonna work together with our clients properly and be able to you know, solve problems, come up with solutions in a collaborative way. And I think it goes, you know, similar to what Tom had mentioned, which is, you know, if you find that you're asking questions and you know, folks are very much, um, interested into only what they can achieve or what they could tell others to do without, you know, some team building type of, um, experiences, sometimes that would be a red flag.

  Mosah: [00:24:09] Final question of, of the episode, uh, for those contemplating their job search or looking for a new opportunity, what's the best piece of advice you could give them today? Tom, you wanna take this one?

  Tom: [00:24:21] Yeah. I'll take it Mosah, thanks. And thanks for, again, thanks for having us. This has been been a great dialogue. Great discussion.

  Look when I, when I created the vision for the compliance access program where I'm at, um, it was built on four pillars, and that is action, urgency, ownership and respect. If you can have a vision without action, that's like having a guard dog without teeth or, or decaffeinated coffee, quite frankly.

  You have got to drive it. You have got to have the action and the urgency to drive the company's vision or your own personal vision. Own it. Get after it, no excuses. Action, urgency and ownership are absolutely critical. And also doing that with the utmost respect for everyone else that you've come in contact with and that you're working with.

  Mosah: [00:25:07] Great, great, great words, Tom. Thanks so much. Lem?

  Lem: [00:25:11] Have good detailed conversations and expectations and what you want out of your career with your potential employer. Uh, be honest about who you are and seek great mentors. Pay attention to who you're gonna be working with and make sure that they're gonna be willing to invest in you.

  Mosah: [00:25:30] Wonderful. George, question to you.

  George: [00:25:24] Yeah, I think there's, there's something for everyone and you know, you may not get the perfect job, but I think you point in the right direction. Go seek where it is that you want to be spending your time where you think you'll have passion, where you'll have interest, will you be engaged?

  Eventually you could hone that in and actually, you know, progress towards more and more of what you want to be doing. I think it's a progression. It really is. My advice to folks is stay interested, stay engaged, work hard, and, um, pay it forward. When you help people, they'll help you. I learn more from my staff and my managers than I do from most folks.

  I feel like it's because that there's an open dialogue with them, and they're always looking out for me just as much as I'm looking out for them.

  Mosah: [00:26:25] Wonderful.

  Lem: [00:26:27] And I would add one more thing. I'm a, I truly believe that there's always a fit. Uh, I've been blessed with an what I think is an extremely, uh, interesting career. It's been one for me. I've enjoyed every minute of it. There's a career out there for, for every applicant that they can enjoy. So don't sell yourself short. If you're not interested in what you're doing, life's too short. So keep at it, find the fit, be honest when you market yourself and, uh, I believe with time anybody that's willing to put in the work can get there.

  Mosah: [00:27:00] Wonderful guys, I, I know I only knew one of you coming in, but I feel like I know, I know each of you a lot better now, and I really appreciate it. So thank you very much.

  Richard [00:27:12] Thank you for joining us on Hiring Insights. Remember, you can learn more about Top Talent Advocates and listen to other episodes by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and click on the Podcast.

  You can also email us at tta@toptalentadvocates.com

Tom O'Connor, George Zaharatos, Lem Montgomery | Navigating an Executive Career Path

On the first episode of this two-part series of Hiring Insights, Mosah Fernandez Goodman sits down with Tom O’Connor, George Zaharatos, and Lem Montgomery.  Tom is the former Executive Vice President of Compliance & Ethics, EHS, ESG at Guardian Industries, George is the Principal-Global Data and Technology Leader for Trade and Customs at KPMG, and Lem is an attorney for Butler Snow, LLP. We focus the discussion on doing something your passionate about, mentorship, and networking to advance your career at any stage.  

• Navigating your career path; is it intentional, linear, or opportunistic?

• Regardless of your age or the stage of your career, having a mentor in your life is crucial to success.

• Building a network without it feeling transactional.

• Overcoming the fear of potential rejection when networking.

• Transcript

  [00:00:00] Richard: Welcome to Hiring Insights. The podcast that provides insight into the executive hiring process and experience, whether you are a job seeker, a people leader, a recruiter, an executive coach, or simply interested in talent, there is something here for you on the Hiring Insights. Today's episode is presented by Top Talent Advocates, where we advocate for executive and legal talent.

  You can learn more about Top Talent Advocates, listen to other episodes, and hire great talent by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and clicking on podcast. Now here's your host for Hiring Insights, Mosah Fernandez Goodman.

  Prior to the release of this episode, Tom O’Connor and Guardian Industries agreed on a mutual separation allowing Tom the time to travel south and spend much needed quality time with his ailing father.

  Mosah: [00:00:56] Tom, Lem, George, thank you so much for joining us today. Really appreciate you being on our next episode of Hiring Insights brought to you by Top Talent Advocates. Many of our listeners will already know the companies that you work for or the firms that you work for but they might not necessarily know you as individuals, and I'm hopeful that each of you, let's start with George, could tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, who you work for, what you love to do, and then maybe a fun fact or what you're reading.

  George: [00:01:26] Well, it's great to be here first of all. My name is George Zaharatos. I'm a partner with the Trading Customs Group here at KPMG, an accounting firm. I think a lot of folks know that we have audit and tax services and advisory services within that, you know, we also have what I handle, which is trade and customs.

  I've been with the firm 18 years, have been serving large multinational companies ever since I started. A little bit about myself. You know, this past weekend I was drifting in one of the m class BMWs, and that was fun. So I'm a little bit of an adrenaline junkie. Love shows like Ted Lasso and you know, just feel-good stuff.

  And I like doing things new, right? Like traveling, going to new places, having new experiences. So it's been a great career here in that regard. There's no one day that's the same as the one before, and there's always something changing. A little bit of a different, you know, tact that most folks would get into when they go to school.

  You're not gonna have someone who says, I wanna actually specialize in trade and customs. So it's one of those areas where a lot of people ask, well, how did you get into it? And I always say that I studied government and politics. I'm not an attorney or a CPA for that matter. You know, I always say that, you know, when I lived in New York City, it was hard to park a car anywhere.

  So I thought if I had diplomatic plates, I would be able to park wherever I wanted, right? So I was like, let me study international relations, maybe get some plates and you know, that's how I got into the space and that's how I am doing what I'm doing now.

  Mosah: [00:03:01] That’s great. Thanks so much, George. I know our audience is looking forward to learning and from you and listening to you.

  So one of our other two guests is Tom O'Connor. Tom, same question to you, background and uh, little bit about yourself.

  Tom: [00:03:15] Yeah, great Mosah, thanks for having me. I really appreciate the invitation here. And of course, George and Lem it’s always great to see you guys. Our career trajectory has been shaped pretty identically over the last several years, and I appreciate you guys being on the journey with us.

  So Mosah, as you can probably tell, like George, I as well am from the New York City area. So I think Lem’s gonna be a little bit of the outlier here, in that regard. But, I'm the presently Vice President of Compliance and Ethics for one of Koch Industries standalone companies, Guardian Industries based in Auburn Hills, Michigan.

  I've been here in this role since 2018 when I was asked to come up to this newly acquired company and set up the compliance and ethics program, and since that time, I now have the ehs capability, our stewardship function, which most companies refer to as sustainability. Product stewardship reports up to me, like a friend of mine told me I, uh, won the pie eating contest and my reward was more pie.

  So that's about where I’m at. Yeah, but I've been with Koch for about 20, over almost 25 years now. I started out with Georgia Pacific in Atlanta, where I was an in-house counsel, and then had the opportunity to be the interim general counsel for one of our affiliate companies Colonial Pipeline during a pretty trying period for them.

  So, um, I've done that. I went to law school in Colorado lived in a number of different places. Worked for the US government for a while. Like I said, grew up in New York City and avid, avid New York Mets fan. I apologize in advance.

  You mentioned a book that I'm reading. I'm reading a book right now by Stacey Schiff. It's called The Revolutionary. It's about Sam Adams and the journey towards American Independence. I typically read books that are, in fact, I only read non-fiction, whether it's a historical piece or a biography. This one's a little bit of both, but I've found it really fascinating in this book, the vitriol that was spilled even back then with respect to the political wins and the misinformation that was, that was banted about it kind of mirrors what we're going through now.

  So it's really interesting that the First Amendment is alive and well, even before we had, even before we had a First Amendment.

  Mosah: [00:05:22] That's fascinating. Thanks. And Lem Montgomery. Hopefully you can, you know, top those two.

  Lem: [00:05:30] Yeah, that's, that's hard to top. Tom's right. First of all, thanks for, thanks for having me. I'm so glad to be here with these guys to do this podcast.

  Uh, Tom's right, I'll be the outlier here. I'm from Mississippi. I've lived here all my life. I'm in Madison, Mississippi originally, actually right now, grew up in Fort Gibson, Mississippi. Population 2,500 at the time. Went to the University of Mississippi, graduated and my major was business with an emphasis in insurance and risk management.

  That was, my father was an insurance agent and a claims adjuster, and so I, it was kind of in the family. So I graduated and worked at an insurance company for about a year, and I was, uh, trained to be an underwriter, and that's when I went back to law school. Went back to the University of Mississippi, graduated from law school, and happened into the firm where I am now.

  It's Butler Snow. At the time it was Butler Snow, O'Mara, Stevens in Canada. It started in the fifties. It was the largest law firm in the state with five attorneys. They said it would never work. Uh, now we have 350 attorneys and 19 plus offices. Uh, my practice is litigation and trial work. Cut my teeth on product liability cases, civil rights cases, all defense work for corporations and governments, municipalities, that kind of thing.

  From there, our practice evolved into kind of a catastrophic disaster type cases where, you know, we'll come in and defend bigger claims of that nature. But I've loved it. My practice has taken me all over the country, practice now routinely and more in courts where I've never been than the ones I used to be familiar with.

  So I'm used to the road, and I love the common thread that the touchstone in it all for me is to tell the story. I love to tell the client's story, the corporate story, better than the owners of the story can tell it for themselves. I think that's where we bring extreme value.

  We're used to, we're used to bigger cases, but in every case, big or small, there's always, an important and usually an interesting story. And that's what I love about the work we do. That's my professional background. Uh, what am I watching, reading, following? Right now I'm reading the writings of Lucius Birch.

  Lucius Birch was an American civil rights attorney at a conservationist from Memphis, Tennessee. And this was a book that my grandmother, my late grandmother, happened to pass down, and I picked it up. It's really fascinating, it's got a lot of history of conservation and American civil rights law. So that's been fun.

  But I've been watching Yellowstone along with everybody else in the country and, uh, that recently led me to read on Undaunted Courage by Ambrose about the Lewis and Clark expedition and the opening of the American West. And so it all kind of tied together for me. I love it. I've rediscovered the outdoors with my 14-year-old.

  Uh, we're big bow hunters. We're interested in whitetail and I'm following the Hunting Public on YouTube and Facebook, if you're interested in that kind of thing. They're a bunch of 20-year-olds who go around hunting on public land, and they're all about conservation, outdoors, relationships with your friends you know, in the outdoors.

  A bunch of really cool guys. And so my son and I enjoy that. So that's, that takes up as far as what I can watch and read. That's about all I have time for outside the legal stuff.

  Mosah: [00:09:04] That’s tremendous. Lem thank you so much. Yeah you know, thinking about each of your backgrounds, they're so diverse.

  We've had a number of guests on, on this podcast from a variety of backgrounds, but to have such incredible variety in one episode is a real treat. You know, our listeners for the most part are interested in learning about what talent is looking for and how talent is managing their own sort of career, because they themselves are looking for or contemplating new opportunities, or they're looking to bring someone into their organization.

  And so given, given the variety of backgrounds that you have, and the question could be answered by whoever wants to start it off, I'm wondering if you might share a little bit about each of your paths.

  Did you navigate it with great intention was, was it linear, was it more opportunistic? Let our listeners into your individual journey and you know, if nobody wants to start, I'm gonna volunteer Tom, but cuz why not pick on one of the Met fans. But I think it'd be really interesting for people to hear what that intentionality or, or perhaps that luck that helped guide each of your so successful careers.

  Tom: [00:10:14] Hey Mosah, and look, that's a great question. I can tell you, and it's so applicable, not just for our own careers, but each of us has children. My son is now 19 years old and he is, you know at that, he is struggling with what he wants to do and finding his journey. I get it. I was there.

  Heck, I was there until probably I was 30 years old. I didn't know what I wanted to do. Your twenties, even post-college years of somewhat of a discovery. Uh, wasn't until I was with the US government, I was with the National Labor Relations Board for three years in Tennessee. When I realized what the attorneys were doing was far more interesting than what I was doing, which was investigating all the matters and then turning them over to the attorneys for, um, for trial.

  So I decided that right then, hey look, I've already got my master's degree. I'm looking for now this professional degree. So I decided to go back to law school and there is a little bit, when you have a job, you're got a pretty secure income and you leave all that to go to law school, now I was, you know, essentially practicing without a net, so it was all on me.

  But having that opportunity to take a chance, take a chance on yourself, find what it is that you're passionate about and then pursue it and jump in with both feet and get after it. That's what I think sets individuals apart who really want to succeed and want to get, and want to get ahead.

  I've had an unbelievably rewarding career as an attorney and now in the client sphere, but even that, your journey will take many different turns along the way. And I know that, I will say that George and Mosah you know this all too well. It's a saying in New York City where you have to have a rabbi in the room.

  Well, you better have an advocate for you too. Align yourselves with people for good people who have gone through their own journeys, regardless of what, whatever it may be, and listen to them. Every one of us is willing to share our journeys with fellow people coming up and those who are looking to take a different path.

  So I highly encourage find people that matter. Stick with people that matter, help other people succeed and you'll be successful.

  Mosah [00:12:14] That's great advice, Tom. Thank you. So George or Lem particular guidance for those who are looking to navigate their path, learning from each of your successful backgrounds.

  Lem: [00:12:26] I'm glad to talk a little bit about my background. There was a lot of luck involved in the journey to where I, to how I ended up here. I again started, you know, I was at an insurance company. I had great mentors, but they sort of had to put my career on pause while they were taking care of this major acquisition that was going on.

  So I had the opportunity to, to see the claims stuff and to see the underwriting side of that merger, that acquisition, there were attorneys around, the CEO was working hand in hand with them every day to witness it all, and that was part of the reason that I decided to take the risk as Tom put it, in the step of quitting that job and leaving to go back to law school, which I did.

  Uh, I found it fascinating. I had a great experience at Ole Miss Law School. Graduated, had several opportunities but joined Butler Snow because of who I would be working with, and it was less about what I would be working on. Great mentors, people I knew who fell in the process of being hired and being recruited, that they were gonna invest in me. That I was gonna have to watch and learn a lot, and to have some people pour a lot of years of experience, uh, into me.

  So I latched onto that and I said, I'm in for whatever practice group you want to put me in. From there, I fell backwards into the product liability group where I ended up with the good partners I've worked alongside for 20 years now, but it was largely, it was largely luck. I'd say the one decision I made though that I would recommend to anybody who's navigating their own career path is focus more on who you'll be working with and less on what you'll be working on.

  And that's not to say turn your back on your field and just find good folks, although that's a, that's not bad practice, but I would say, you know, find your opportunities. Pick from them based on who you'll be working with. Find good mentors who'll invest in you. You can't go wrong with that. That's what allowed me to learn and develop the skillset I needed to do what I do.

  Tom: [00:14:27] Now Lem, you said something really profound there about, about mentorship, which is unbelievable and I alluded to that in my discussion, but it's so important no matter what age you are, where you are in your career, to have a mentor to someone who believes in you, even if you're in a position that may not be your competitive advantage at the time. Continue to be open to that.

  The best example I can give of that is one of my mentors, my, in fact, my primary mentor, he started at Koch Industries right out of, he was with a small firm out of law school in Kansas, and he interviewed with Koch. They only had an opening in the litigation team.

  And he's like, I'm not a litigator. And I remember he would never forget what he, what he, what they said. Look, we get that, but that's the position we have right now. We know that you gotta be something else when you get here. We just want you. You've got the right cultural fit for us and we wanna bring you aboard.

  And sure enough, he trusted them. Took that leap of faith, was a litigator for eight or nine months, and they moved him into a role where he's ascended now to a very, very permanent position within Koch. Having that, being that nimble and understanding your first job, your second job, this isn't gonna be the be all, end all.

  You've got such opportunities and be thirsty for that knowledge and continue to grow within that sphere and having the right mentorships helps.

  Lem: [00:15:42] That’s exactly right. That's, and I've tried to pay that forward. I've tried to pass it on to the extent I can, but, and I'm really glad I, I went about it that way.

  Mosah: [00:15:51] Lem thank you so much for that. George, anything to add to the conversation before we move on to the next question?

  George: [00:15:56] Everybody has a journey and that's what makes us special. And being able to tell that story is what you know is so exciting about being us as individuals. I mean, when people ask me, what was your first job, I actually can't remember which of the many jobs was my first one, right?

  It was busing tables, plumber, electrician, working with my dad, doing a bunch of, you know, odds and ends. and you know, I grew up in an immigrant family household in Brooklyn, New York. And you know, a lot of it had to do with, you know, doing what you want to do to get through what you're doing now, right?

  Like kind of looking ahead months or years, but not 10 years and 20 years. But you also had this motivation and I guess the mentorship, in an immigrant family was, listen, you could do whatever you want as long as it's a doctor or a lawyer, right? You come up with one of the two. So over the years, I mean, you know, you just end up realizing that if you do something well and you're having fun doing it, that you know you'll, you'll continue to do it well and doesn't matter what it is really.

  I even tell my daughters this, so I'm just like, find whatever you want, but be great at it. Right? And, and have passion about it. I think that that's the overall advice. In terms of my journey, I interned with a small customs broker out at JFK. This was when we had like floppy disks and you'd switch 'em from one computer to another and like hit a button.

  It would transmit to customs. Then someone in customs would call you and say, this is no good. You gotta bring me documents. And we'd go to JFK and meet with customs. You know, you'd see a helicopter wrapped up in Saran Wrap sitting on the tarmac, and we were clearing, you know, different types of helicopters or would go in and have someone show up with diamonds, with you know, just a briefcase handcuffed to their hand.

  And we would clear them through customs. It was interesting. And, you know, it kept being interesting and you know, the only reason why was cuz I wanted to learn more about everything that was going on and I felt like the journey was one of curiosity, just as much as it was wanting to do well. Right?

  And that's what led me during this path to where I am with a lot of great mentors and a few people that came to me at some point in my career and said, you know what, George, I think you've exceeded what your potential is here at this company and I want to introduce you to someone who I think you should speak to and, you know, end up working for them instead.

  And that takes a lot, right? I mean, I have mentors I look back at and I said, if they never told me that, you know, I have more than what you know, is needed at this company and that I should go somewhere else and go into consulting, which is, which is what this person did for me. And I thank Nick for that.

  Ultimately I wouldn't have been where I am and I would never have had [that shot to speak to the, the head of the trading customs at the time, practice here at KPMG.

  Mosah: [00:19:02] I am hoping that each of you can weigh in a little bit on how you've cultivated networks, but more so how you would suggest that people go about building their own networks without it feeling transactional, right? Working to build genuine relationships that can be win-win. Throw that question out there for, for anyone who wants to take a first stab.

  Tom: [00:19:23] Hey, look, the first thing you've got to do Mosah is you've gotta be genuine. If you're trying to build a network just to build a network and you want to try to get ahead, that's not gonna work because you're not being true to what other people can do for you, right there. It has to be the quintessential win-win situation.

  So I look at, and at a mantra of ours at Koch and at Guardian is people succeed by helping each other succeed. And if you do that, if you come at it with that frame of reference that, look, I want to help you as much as you're gonna help me. That's how we succeed. And the second part of that is that you have got to have a professional inquisitiveness.

  You have to be interested in other people and other experiences. And other opportunities. We all mentioned that at the, at the outset, your first job is not gonna be your last. And the individuals you meet along the way, along that journey are all part of that journey. And who knows, having that professional inquisitiveness to understand what it is that they do, what makes them tick.

  That's the start of a mentorship. That's the start of you being a mentor and being mentored.

  George: [00:20:26] You know, Tom, if I could just build on that, I mean, the hardest thing for people, students coming out of college or you know, a master's program or even law school is I think sometimes they're like, look, I mean, I don't even know what I'm getting myself into.

  How am I gonna be passionate about it enough so that you could hire me? Right? Like, how do I now balance what it is that you believe is interested in your space, with the fact that I have zero experience, and I think that there's a lot there that if you're interested in things, for the sake of curiosity, for the sake of inquisitiveness, right? When it comes to things happening in the world, it'll show through and, you know, folks would be like, well, this person sounds like they're able to navigate, you know, and be nimble with a lot of different areas.

  Doesn't necessarily need to be a certain focus of law or regulatory regime or, you know, sanctions embargoes that we're working with or trading and customs tariffs and, and you know, China, you know, imports and such.

  I mean, doesn't really matter as long as there's some inquisitiveness in terms of what it is that, you know, I'm working on. And I actually think it's important to do your research before it, is that you go in and, you know, have an interview and find someone who you can match up with.. You know, ultimately, like we're all, you know, we're all working on things and interested in certain things and, you know, that connection, if someone doesn't take the opportunity to make that connection early on, I think they miss an opportunity to potentially use a, you know, a great career and, and they miss the opportunity.

  So I do think it's important that folks show that they're interested, do the research as well.

  Mosah: [00:22:10] Great. Thanks George.

  Lem: [00:22:12] I've got a great network of connections and, and friends, and it, it happened organically from a rearward looking perspective I can see now, why it went as well as it did. But I'll tell you just by way of background.

  Before I went to law school, when I was, when I thought I was gonna be at insurance, one of the things that I did not want to do was one of the most lucrative jobs you can have in insurance, and I didn't want to be in sales because I thought sales meant I'm asking somebody to subscribe to some service or, or product that they don't really need, that I'm gonna be pushing on 'em and, you know, knocking on doors and you know, like your, just your quintessential door to door vacuum salesman, you know, on a TV sitcom kind of thing.

  And so I was so averse to sales. Fast forward now 20 years later, after, you know, 20 years of law practice, uh, business development and talking to new potential client is one of my favorite parts of the job. Telling people what our law firm can do for clients and what I think I can do for them, you know, and learning what keeps 'em up at night and how I can help with that.

  But the way it started was at my current network was really just through a series of friendships, you know they send you to conferences and get involved in cases, and you meet other lawyers, lawyers on the opposite side, lawyers on the same side. And, I would just make those connections naturally and the network just sort of grew and connected that way.

  But I would say, you know, looking back, I've got a good friend, he's a high up executive in a fortune 500 company that you would all know if I said the name, but he always used to say we were young, I've known him for, you know, 15 years, 20 years now, but we were young and he had an issue in Mississippi and we met and he asked, asked me for help.

  I helped him and then he helped me and he used to say, Hey, it's people helping people. So never turned down an opportunity to help somebody else professionally. It all comes back. You do have to be naturally interested in people. You also have to be interested and willing have to be other people, uh, when you see those opportunities.

  And that's one of the ways that, that you grow your network in a genuine way. I would say never turn down an opportunity to stretch your comfort zone and broaden your experience and expertise. I've had several times when I was asked to do a thing or get involved in something and I thought, man, that's outside of my wheelhouse. I should probably just stay inside my comfort zone, but have routinely and intentionally chosen not to do that.

  That's opened up all kinds of opportunity, all relationships and contacts. And then on the aversion to sales part, that I was gonna come back to, you have to be honest. You had asked, I think there was a question about fear of rejection when reaching out to a new contact.

  That's an easy one because if you're honest in a way that you really think you can help clients or people, they may not be receptive to it, but as long as you have something worthwhile to offer and you know that, then you'll never be dishonest in your approach. And there shouldn't be any fear of reaching out to new contact clients ever.

  It should be something that's, uh, that's natural and something you want to do.

  Mosah: [00:25:25] That's awesome. That's great. Thanks so much. So I'd like to turn it back and, and let you kind of beat me to the punch about how it might be possible for people to overcome a fear of rejection when reaching out, because whether it be through business development, but obviously our, our listeners are primarily focused on new opportunities and helping grow their networks.

  Maybe in a sentence, and it's, sorry to confine you guys to that, but George and Tom, if you could give us just a sentence as to how you would suggest someone overcome that potential fear of rejection when they might wanna reach out to someone to talk about a, an opportunity or to get to know someone because they happen to have their dream job and, and look to learn from them.

  So either one can take it, but looking for your insights into overcoming fear.

  George: [00:26:21] Yeah Mosah I could take it first. I mean, my first one is, you know, ask yourself the question, what do you have to lose? You have nothing to lose if you reach out to someone and they don't respond to you, but you have a lot to gain if they respond to you and they want to share and they want to be in a position to help you.

  So I think you have nothing to lose by reaching out to folks and asking for help or asking just to meet and talk. Right. And so from my perspective, just being there, right, being able to send them a note, it's real simple. And you have nothing to lose in my opinion. That's the way I would approach it. Cuz otherwise it gets too complicated. You could actually, you know, talk yourself in a pickle.

  Mosah: [00:27:02] Could not agree with you more, George. Tom?

  Tom: [00:27:05] Yeah Mosah, so when we, when we think about, um, our careers or the individuals who help helped us along the way, if you think about their journeys too, every single individual that you encounter, no one's had anything just handed to him, down a primroses path. We've all had to work for it. We've all been in that situation.

  Everybody that you reach out to will be appreciative of the fact that you're doing it. Have the courage to get out there and not just advocate for yourself, but to be, to be curious. And like George, as you mentioned, if someone says no, they, they say no.

  This, and, and there may be multiple reasons for that, but there's plenty of opportunity. That's how you're gonna build. Um, well, when we grew up, you know, on long Island and New York City area, you know, we used to go to the beach and that water it was always cold. You just gotta jump in, man.

  You just gotta jump in, take that plunge and get that shock away. And after a while it'll be easier. Start doing it. It'll get much easier to reach out and have those conversations.

  Mosah: [00:28:04] That’s sage advice. I could not agree. And I know that chill, that water is freezing. I agree with you. It doesn't matter if it's, uh, June or September, it's still cold.

  Thank you so much Tom, George, Lem, it was great to have you on our show. Next month we’ll be releasing part two of this series, highlighting their insights for job seekers and hiring managers. Thanks so much.

  Richard [00:28:30] Thank you for joining us on Hiring Insights. Remember, you can learn more about Top Talent Advocates and listen to other episodes by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and click on the Podcast.

  You can also email us at tta@toptalentadvocates.com

David Hecker, Brenda Morris, Drew Fossum | Insights Into the Job Seeking Process and Experience

On this episode of Hiring Insights, Mosah Fernandez Goodman sits down with three attorneys: Brenda Morris, Drew Fossum, and David Hecker. Brenda is the Vice President, Assistant General Counsel, Litigation, Employment and Compliance at Sealed Air, Drew is the Vice President and General Counsel at Tenaska, Inc., and David is the Group General Counsel for Kiewit. Part 2 of this 2-part episode focuses on their insights into the job seeking process and experience.

• The legal and executive job market today; recession, record revenue, who’s hiring right now?

• There could be 10 other resumes just as good as yours, whether you’re a CFO looking to make a move or an attorney with 20 years of experience, what should you be doing to stand out in the job search process?

• Looking at, evaluating, and negotiating your compensation prior to starting a job.

• Considerations before starting a search; be realistic about the possibilities for your career or the type of practice you are looking for, and the type of lifestyle you want to live.

• What things are a hiring manager looking for to gauge and understand a candidate’s validity or credibility?

• PODCAST TRANSCRIPT

  [00:00:00] Richard: Welcome to Hiring Insights. The podcast that provides insight into the executive hiring process and experience, whether you are a job seeker, a people leader, a recruiter, an executive coach, or simply interested in talent, there is something here for you on the Hiring Insights. Today's episode is presented by Top Talent Advocates, where we advocate for executive and legal talent.

  You can learn more about Top Talent Advocates, listen to other episodes, and hire great talent by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and clicking on podcast. Now here's your host for Hiring Insights, Mosah Fernandez Goodman.

  [00:00:43] Mosah: Thank you for joining us for part two of our conversation with Brenda Morris, Vice President of Litigation, Employment, and Compliance at Sealed Air, Drew Fossum, Senior Vice President and General Counsel at Tenaska and David Hecker, Group General Counsel at Kiewit. If you haven’t already listened to our first episode with this trio, it offers incredible and wonderful insights into how they navigated the start to their careers.

  Thanks so much everyone, really enjoyed understanding a little bit more about you and your career paths and now we’d like to talk about some of your guidance for insights into the job seeking process and experience.

  Welcome back to the second part of our conversation with Brenda, Drew, and David. Really enjoyed the first round of conversation that we had and now I’d like to move the conversation to talking about job seeking and some of the experiences that you have had.

  Sitting here it’s 2023 and people are talking about a recession, whether we're already in it, whether it's coming up and in how intense it might be. Having obviously exited or relatively so exited the pandemic. Uh, there's a lot of talk about the legal job market and executive hiring, whether companies should be doing it, whether they are doing it.

  Just generally, what is each of your sort of perceptions of the legal and the executive job market now?

  [00:2:18] Drew: I'm glad to take a shot at that Mo. Again, speaking narrowly just to our industry, I think the energy industry has not started to experience recession at this point. If anything, we're in a rapid growth mode.

  And I see companies across the electric, gas and liquid fuels industry, looking for people still. And I don't see any likely reduction in that demand for good quality people over the next 12 to 24 months really.

  [00:02:52] Brenda: I think the same is for most companies too, is if the business is there, they're still looking to fill the fill positions.

  Um, especially I, I've seen and gotten a lot of requests in the diversity and inclusion market. I mean, they're looking for individuals that are, have the experience and you know, to kind of say, well, we can't find those candidates it's a bit of a cop out. I mean, you can find the candidates. I can help you find the candidates.

  I know a lot of people who you may be interested in and are wonderful. So it's like if you build it, they will come. So I think the jobs are still hiring that they need. I mean, it is scary. You never know how certain industries will be hit, but I don't think you should let that, um, scare you into, um, stagnation.

  You just gotta keep pushing forward.

  [00:03:43] Mosah: There’s always gonna be a need for heat and energy. There's always gonna be a need for bubble wrap. And people are still gonna need to be in buildings. David, what’s your take on the market?

  [00:03:53] David: I agree. Um, I mean we're big in the energy space as well as infrastructure.

  When the economy's bad, the government spends money on infrastructure to try and boost the economy. We've hired in the last, you know, nine months, probably 10 lawyers to our company. We've just had a record year for revenue last year. So I would say we're, our challenge is being able to find enough quality people to continue to allow us to grow.

  So, kind of contrary to what you hear a lot about, you know, what's going on in the general economy, I would say we're the opposite of that. So we're, we're in a buyer's market from our standpoint, looking for talent.

  [00:04:36] Mosah: Thank you. So the next question is, is not as time bound in terms of whether we're in a recession or a booming economy. But if someone came to you and said, you know, Brenda, Drew, David, I'm thinking about starting a job search and I'd love to know what your advice would be as I start that executive level, you know, higher, higher pay, but also higher stress type role that each of you are in.

  What would be your advice to those folks just getting started in their job journey?

  [00:05:11] Brenda: Be comfortable with three people that you feel comfortable talking about moving forward with a position that you know, that know you so that they can help you to make sure that your resume really does reflect your experience and is a true reflection of you.

  And also too, if they hear things, I think sometimes people get a little cultish about sharing you know, I'm looking. You know, that's why you choose three people you trust cuz lawyers do like to talk. So three people you trust, you never know what's gonna come back.

  [00:05:44] Mosah: Thank you David, Drew?

  [00:05:46] David: Um, I would say, you know, cast a net broadly if you're a just graduate from law school, um, you know, or just coming outta your first job, I would say cast your net broadly.

  You need opportunity, you need experience. And so while you, you know, you might come out wanting a big law job, the reality is there's only a handful of those and you can get really great experience from quality firms. If I was a young person and I had some options, I would look at the firm that was going to give me the best mentoring and the most broad experience because I just don't know what kind of practice options there are out there.

  I'd need to get exposed to them. And, um, you know, I might think I want to practice in one area, but when I get exposed to it, I don't like the day-to-day, you know, practice in that area, so I'll move to something else. And then just generally attitude goes a long way. I always tell people that impress me, it's the positive attitude when they come in and they're positive about the opportunity, about wanting to work for us, that they've done their research.

  That goes a long way in impressing me, um, as they're the, you know, a potentially, um, good solution for us. When you come in and you just lay an impressive resume down, but you're just kind of, you know, not enthusiastic, that tells me you don't really want the job, but you're just going through the motions.

  And I think a positive energetic attitude goes a tremendous way in impressing a potential employer.

  [00:07:19] Mosah: And that's probably true in, in your opinion at all levels, right? Regardless of whether you have 20 years under your proverbial belt in managing complex cases, or you're a CFO at one company, moving to another, attitude really can't be taught.

  I, again, I'm sort of putting words in your mouth, but I'm looking for validation.

  [00:07:37] David: No, I agree. I mean, if you came in and, and you're just going through the motions, what am I supposed to take away from that? Just be wowed by a resume? I'm gonna get 10 other resumes that are just as good. I mean, that's the reality of where we're at right now.

  So if you're not as positive and energetic and enthused about the opportunity, um, convince me that you wanna live in Omaha, and not just say the words and then hope you get the job, and then convince me you're gonna telecommute from somewhere. Um, yeah. So I, I think positive is really, really important if you're trying to get a job.

  [00:08:11] Mosah: Thanks David. And Drew, I'm wondering if I might narrow the question a little bit more specifically for you is just for the executive that's seeking their next role or the more senior level council, um, what advice do you give that person as they start their, their job search?

  [00:08:28] Drew: I think I'd start with; you've spent your career building a set of contacts, now use them.

  And by that, I mean for any of us, at particularly a stage in our careers when we've been out for 5 or 10 or 15 years, you'll have a set of very good contacts. They may be former colleagues at law firms or companies. They may be former professors; they may be expert witnesses that worked on a case for you.

  Call them. Block off a half hour or 45 minutes and schedule a disciplined, thorough discussion about your intentions, what you're looking for, what you're asking them to help you with. and approach that conversation as an important professional event where you've prepared for it, you've outlined your thoughts, you communicate clearly, and you've got a positive attitude about the next stage in your career.

  And by the way, I, I've described this in excruciating detail, even though I've never been smart enough to do it. I've had people in my office doing it to me and I was blown away by how effective it was. Because I think you'll find if you do that with your top 10 contacts, some of them may have been huge fans to start with, and some of them may be less huge, but predisposed to think you were pretty good.

  They'll all be huge fans by the time they're finished with that 45-minute conversation. And they'll be very effective in helping you find a job or keeping their radar tuned up to maximum for you and there's nothing more effective.

  [00:09:58] Mosah: So sort of building that group of advocates, if you will.

  And that's a lot of what we do with our clients. Drew is exactly that, is help connect them to those folks that we know, that trust our insights into people and then encourage people to leverage their own networks because nothing is more significant than having someone say, I'd like to introduce you to someone I know, trust, like.

  [00:10:17Drew: Exactly. Nothing's more authentic than that.

  [00:10:20] Mosah: Absolutely. Absolutely. So a question that, might not have been as appropriate, and, and this this isn't intended in any way other than to get to the heart of social media, but each of you sort of rose to the top of your fields before LinkedIn was really an active element of how someone builds that online presence and that online brand.

  We do a lot of that work with executives. I'm wondering if you might, uh, more so from the, uh, hiring manager, since each of you are in those seats now, describe to our listeners how LinkedIn, social media, email traffic, plays a role in someone's ability to help secure their next opportunity. And questions out there for anyone who wants to take this first stab at it.

  [00:11:02] Brenda: Well, I think LinkedIn is important to get insights on if you are, if you, you already have interviews set up who you're meeting with. Um, if you're being introduced to someone, you know who you're going to be, you know, what is their background, to find some commonality to just do that, that initial research on that individual so that you can come and be inquisitive and look like you know, you really have spent some time investing in what this company does, what that law firm does, what this individual does, what was their career path.

  So I think it, it gives those kind of great introductory kind of settings. But I, I have to say, I, you know, I am a little nervous when people kind of LinkedIn stalk me. You know, I can see, just remember, you know, keep on coming back, looking at you, looking at you. I didn't change it since yesterday.

  [00:12:00] Mosah: So the people who stalk you but aren't smart enough to turn off the fact that they, they, you can see right.

  [00:12:06] Brenda: Well, that tells you something right there. Right. That gives you some insight. So I, you know, I, I have not been the biggest user of LinkedIn other than, you know, looking at, at candidates, looking at other people, looking at people that I might meet at meetings or at different networking events.

  Um, so I think it can be useful.

  [00:12:27] Mosah: David, Drew, anything to add to either side of the equation when it comes to social media or electronic, uh, sort of networking, if you will?

  [00:12:35] Drew: I guess I'd add one thing. It's been a long time since I wrote a law review article, but I think of, LinkedIn as more of a secondary source when I'm, uh, evaluating a candidate.

  It's more to validate and cross-check potential common acquaintances that I could reach out to live and talk to about the candidate. Um, it's, it's a validation tool.

  [00:12:55] Mosah: Got it. Thank you. David. Anything to add?

  [00:12:58] David: All I would add is that, uh, if you give me a resume, you should assume that when you make it past our initial screening, I'm gonna look up your online presence and what pops up is gonna have to be consistent with what's on your resume.

  And that includes your LinkedIn account. So you, you know, stopped working for a farm three months ago, according to LinkedIn, but your resume says you're still there. I'm gonna be asking you questions about that. Um, that's low hanging fruit to me. I know that when we're out looking for a position, our HR group will scan, uh, search whatever they, they they're able to do, um, for can potential candidates through LinkedIn.

  I couldn't tell you how effective that is. I question whether or not it's a particularly effective tool. I think we have a real challenge because of where we're located, um, getting candidates from around the country. Who, they might seem like they're interested in the position, but the move to Omaha is a big challenge, and that's a whole different discussion.

  And LinkedIn really doesn't address that, right? Or it is just kind of words on a, on a screen. And I need to be able to talk to people and get them to understand what the job is really about and see if they're really interested in.

  [00:14:15] Mosah: Sure. And so when we, when we're working with candidates or those looking for new opportunities, we sort of describe it to people as having a diversified portfolio.

  No different than managing an investment. You know, you're gonna have some stocks, you're gonna have some bonds, some real estate. And in the same way that you're managing your, your search, you should be using every tool at your disposal. LinkedIn being one of those. But probably the most important, particularly after you've accumulated this series of networks, I think each of you have alluded to or stated specifically, it's the opportunity to connect with people because people hire people and LinkedIn can just be a conduit to grow that. Or as, as each of you have described, sort of confirm what, how you're presenting yourself. So thanks for your insights on that.

  Wanna move to a little bit of a conversation on comp, either from the hiring manager perspective or, or tips and tricks that each of you have maybe sort of learned or experiences that you've had is, how does someone really look at and evaluate and maybe even negotiate their compensation prior to starting a job?

  So they already have the offer and they've got, uh, you know, a series of, of benefits and, and various forms of comp and obviously it depends on public, private, um, whole, whole slew of things go into compensation. But how should someone think about compensation and, and whether even they should negotiate it, how, how they should go about that?

  [00:15:42] David: Well, I would just say I think you should expect to be treated fairly by your employer. And I think it's a fair question to, I mean, we're a large enough department, uh, there, there's other people in the position already that you're looking to get into. And while I wouldn't disclose specifics, I would certainly tell them the range that those people are in.

  And I would be transparent with the candidate about where, you know, where we're at and what can be done. If they think they need to get more money. I think ask for it. And I’ll tell you honestly if I can or I can't. Uh, maybe I'll try and convince you, you don't need as much in Omaha, but yeah, I, I think have an open, candid conversation about what's done.

  I hired someone recently and she told me that she'd been given a bunch of advice on how to approach and not to put a number out there. And I said, well, I'm as the hiring manager, I'm not gonna hire somebody without knowing what I'm gonna have to pay you. So it just seemed odd and, you know, her number was actually less than what I offered.

  So I'm not sure that some of that advice is really practical. Uh, I would be transparent about what I felt I need, what I felt I was worth, and if the employer can match that, they will. And if they can't, they won’t.

  [00:16:57] Mosah: Thanks David. Yeah, no, that sounds like a great sort of view on it that you and, and certainly others in your company take.

  So, Brenda, Drew, anything, anything to add from a comp perspective?

  [00:17:10] Brenda: Yeah, I think not being afraid to, to ask is good advice. I also think depending on what level you're coming in as if you're coming in as a senior executive, I think you should invest in going to a professional like you Mosah or an attorney that you know, handles comp or senior execs cuz they have a better view of the perspective of what clumps are out there at, you know, different locations, different levels, what all you can negotiate, what all can you put into a package.

  So, if you're a senior level, I think you should invest in having a professional help you walk through it. And I also, when you think about not being afraid to ask, just know, don't be afraid to ask, but back it up. I'm asking this because, and this is what I have to offer behind it. You know, just don't say, you know, I've always wanted to make 300,000.

  300,000. That's what I want. Yeah. Okay. Sure. I always wanted an elephant don’t think I'm gonna get it.

  [00:18:11] Mosah: Uh, thanks. Thanks Brenda. Drew, any, any insight on comp or structure of it?

  [00:18:17] Drew: Sure. Um, I guess a, a sort of, uh, junior, varsity level comment and then maybe one that hopefully is a little more sophisticated. The junior varsity level advice to anyone, searching for a job is when you get to the point of talking seriously about the position and taking it, you need to know as the candidate what the hiring, uh, executive knows about the range of comps in that market, whether it's Omaha, whether it's Washington, whether it's LA. That person's got a piece of paper on their desk from the HR department that tells 'em what the range of expectations is for that position in that size company in that market.

  You as the candidate, need to know what that range is. That’s the JV level advice. The more important part of the process though is once you're sure you want the job, once you know they're going to offer it or they have offered it, you need to get yourself as high in that range as you can. And you shouldn't be shy about negotiating for the number that you want, but be prepared to give specific examples of why that's appropriate.

  The kinds of examples that will cause a hiring manager to nod their head up and down instead of to do this. And it's, it's a credibility, you know, persuasiveness negotiation issue. You're either good at it or you're not, but the more you practice it, the better you get.

  [00:19:33] Mosah: There you go. Thanks Drew. Appreciate it.

  So, in a sentence, maybe, what would be the best advice any of you could give to a job seeker generally? Just really quick, someone says they're passing you in the hallway, hey, I'm looking for a job. What would you say to 'em?

  [00:19:46] Drew: How about keep your head up and never lose the faith.

  [00:19:50] Mosah: That's great. It's a start to a song.

  [00:19:55] Brenda: Where is it that you want to go?

  I mean, I think just looking for a job. I think being very, again, I use the word deliberate. Where is it that you want to go? All of it is a little bit, all of us have expressed a little bit of happenstance in our career, but each level was getting to a different job, a different level, you know? Um, and I, it sounds like all of us are excited about our jobs because it offers different experiences and it's exciting.

  And I think you have to be driven by what it is, your passion rather than dollar.

  [00:20:27] Mosah: Got it. Thank you, Brenda. David, anything to add?

  [00:20:30] David: I think I would go to Brenda. Her advice is the right one. I mean, what do you want to do and where do you want to do it? And, and what is the lifestyle that you're looking for?

  I mean, all those are relevant considerations that, you know, if you wanna make a million dollars a year, there's certain kinds of practice you need to do. If you want to do that kind of practice in Omaha, it's not gonna happen. You know, if you want to be an environmental law, a lawyer in, you know, some particular place that doesn't have an environmental practice, that's not gonna happen.

  So getting realistic about what's possible for the career you want the type of practice where you want to practice, how much you want to make. And to me it's not so much about the dollars and cents, but what kind of lifestyle do you want to have? Right. There you go. Um, so all those, I would ask before I would talk specifics about anything, you know, what is it that you wanna do and if it's realistic, you know, let's get focused on how to make that happen.

  If it's not realistic, then we need to readjust to what reality.

  [00:21:29] Mosah: Sounds like a good gateway to the cost-of-living argument in Omaha is what it sounds like, David.

  [00:21:34] Drew: Yeah. If you want a good cost of living, this is the place. If you wanna knock off early at a Friday afternoon and ski a few runs, not so much.

  [00:21:41] Mosah: That's great. Okay. So, um, I'm sure we'll send that over to the chamber.

  Last category of questions. And I think this is gonna be really helpful for those who might actually interview with any of the three of you at some point in time or, or the moral equivalent. Um, you know, insights from a hiring manager perspective when you're looking at candidates, and some of that's been peppered throughout the conversation, you know, when, when, when you're going through the hiring process, what are, what are the things that you are looking at to gauge and understand a candidate's, either validity or their sort of credibility? What are those things that are running through your mind as a hiring manager to evaluate a candidate at any stage and whatever stage is most important to you?

  Resume review, interview, comp, negotiation, questions out there intentionally broad.

  [00:22:39] David: Well, I would say, communication is probably the number one thing. Uh, I would expect someone to be an effective communicator with me. Um, be direct, answer the questions, be positive in their communication. But we're in a communication business.

  We're communicating to managers; hires are communicating to me. We're communicating with third parties. The ability to communicate effectively is one of the most important elements that I'm gonna look for, both orally and in writing. Cuz so much of what we do now is, is written. I would also, I guess say being transparent about your past experiences.

  I always look to see, you know, how many jobs they've had. And I know that's a superficial thing to look at, but we're like Drew's company, we're a culture-based company. Our people are long term, we're employee owned. And if you've been hopping from job to job for whatever reason, have an explanation for why that is.

  Um, you're looking for better opportunities than you got them. You had an illness in the family and had to relocate. Whatever it is, have an explanation for why you've changed, you know, a number of times or, and be sensitive to that if you have that on your resume, um, understand that people are gonna ask that question and have an answer.

  It's not a, a disqualifying element, but it's certainly something that I ask about. And if people are defensive about it or, you know, don't want to be transparent or they're not honest, I don't mind if somebody's, you know, gotten better positions a number of times moved up, if you will, or if people have moved around for personal reasons, but I want to get a reason that tells me something.

  You're just not shopping around for a little bit more money. Um, and that's, that doesn't fit the culture that we've got. We want long-term people that really believe in our company.

  [00:24:27] Mosah: That's great, David. Thank you. Brenda, Drew, anything to add to that as you're looking at evaluating candidates that might want to work for you or, or experiences that you've had that have been great or maybe not so great?

  [00:24:38] Brenda: I look for work ethic and mental agility. I wanna know that, you know, you're a hard worker that doesn't mind working hard and that you are willing to go with the curve balls, you know, to understand. So, you know, I do something in interviews that I used to hate, but it's a good process. I give hypotheticals, um, and I mix them up with kind of real stuff and then throw a lot of messy in it just to see, you know, how you're gonna work with other teams, how you're gonna think through when there's something crazy happening.

  Um, because it, it's, I mean, there is or could be a very wrong answer, and of course you are not the candidate if you're coming up with that, but it's, um, not so much a right or wrong, it's, it's, I wanna see how you think. Um, and I wanna see if you're a good fit for the team. And when I say a good fit for the team, I look at everybody that I bring onto my team not for the team that I have, but for the team I want to be. Cuz if I just look for the team that I have, we're gonna be kind of stagnant.

  I'm looking for somebody who brings something to the team. How can you take us higher? What do you do that we don't have? What do you have that would be great to bring in, you know, how can this person's attitude help, you know, bolster this person, you know, kind of help them learn and grow.

  So that's what I kind of, uh, look for when I'm interviewing candidates. And in doing that, I think as, as David said about transparency, you have to open up about yourself too and about the team and honestly what you're looking for so that they can give you honest feedback.

  [00:26:13] Mosah: Yeah, great insights. Thank you, Brenda.

  Drew, anything to add?

  [00:26:17] Drew: Well, just a couple of thoughts. Um, we've been very fortunate since I've been at Tenaska 16 years. We've, we've had three lawyers in my group of approximately seven leave by retirement, and we've had three hires. Uh, each of the hires was someone that we were able to cross reference with a previously known and trusted third party who knew the individual very well and vouched for their wattage and wiring and work ethic and skillsets and all of that stuff.

  The thing that's really hard to pin down is whether, like David said, they're gonna fit the culture. Um, we're a privately held, company founder, founders are still involved in the business. Cultures really important to us and I for one, hate interviewing and hiring people. I want the people that we do hire to stay forever.

  We've been to Hotel California so far. I would love to see that continue. So finding someone who's a good fit and who will be comfortable staying here for a long period of time, if they're fairly compensated and given interesting things to work on is the hardest part of hiring someone, but it's what we've fortunately been pretty good at so far.

  [00:27:19] Mosah: Thanks, Drew. Okay, so last question for each of you is, um, before maybe I ask for your best lawyer joke, which is, um, what advice do you have for hiring managers looking to recruit and retain talent in today's market? It's, it's one thing to expect that or hope that someone fits your culture and stays forever.

  But what, what advice to the hiring managers, what advice to the moral or to each of you would you give, uh, in order to recruit and then really work to retain that talent? What's many of the things, maybe maintaining the culture, working to make sure people are paid fairly? Those are the kinds of things that I hear from our, our clients all the time.

  [00:27:56] Drew: Yeah. And it's hard to set up my gatekeepers in the HR department to do that job very efficiently. They, they have a good understanding of, uh, the, the larger organizations at my company and what the expectations are within those organizations. But still, it's difficult for them to be as effective a gatekeeper as I could be on that first layer of screening, but I, I can't do that myself.

  Um, so I do try to emphasize the culture and I do try to guide them to look for people who, who check the right boxes, but who also are looking for stability and are looking for the longer term and will be comfortable if they achieve their career success, you know, successes gradually over time as opposed to just, you know, two or three years in their wealthy and can retire.

  [00:28:46] Mosah: Thanks Drew. Brenda, David, any, any advice to the, your peers as they look to recruit and retain talent?

  [00:28:54] David: Well again, we're in very much, I think, similar situation to Drew and, and Tenaska. You know, I always want them to sell the opportunity, you know, or we're going to pay people fairly, you have to live in Omaha or, or one of the places where we have a major hub office.

  But I always think the benefit of it is the opportunity. The opportunity to live in a reasonably priced location. The opportunity to do very challenging work. The opportunity to be at a company that wants to you to retire from there. Those are culture type issues in my, in my experience. But that's where the focus, cuz a lot of people that have been out in the marketplace, that's what they're fundamentally looking for, right?

  They want a new challenge; they want a more sophisticated challenge. Uh, it's not necessarily about money. And again, we're gonna pay fairly. And if that's what you're willing to accept, then you're gonna be fine. It's the people that want the opportunity, the, um, kind of excite me. So the first thing that our first layer of people are gonna be is question them about what they've done in the past and what they liked about it, what they didn't like about.

  And what, you know, why are they interested in this position? And what we're wanting to hear from them is, I want to take on a bigger challenge. I want, you know, an answer that focuses on this is an opportunity that I want. And then we can kind of work with that.

  [00:30:16] Mosah: Great, thank David, and Brenda?

  [00:30:19] Brenda: Yeah. So along the same lines, I think, um, I ask our recruitment team to really ask, um, candidates why this job?

  Why now? And because I wanna know what it is they're looking for, because I want to help them to grow. One thing you mentioned earlier Mosah is that people gravitate towards people. And a lot of times people leave people not jobs. So I wanna make sure we have an opportunity to help you grow and get what you're looking to gain, and that this is a team that's gonna be invested in you.

  I know I work harder for people that I feel, you know, that I'm working as a team with. I don’t wanna let you down. If the four of us are working, uh, on, on an effort, uh, it's my mission to make sure we get there. One of the greatest compliments I got when I was working at the Justice Department is one of a very seasoned litigator, somebody who was respected, you know, across the country.

  Um, I had the opportunity to do a trial with him and, um, I argued a horrible motion, which I knew I was gonna go down in flames and, but I, I had to do it. And when I sat down, he leaned over and whispered to me, I'd be in a foxhole with you any day. Oh, that's great. And I was like, yes. So, you know, it's, I think that's what we wanna do is to make sure, you know, you're only as strong as your weakest link.

  We are here to make not only you better and making you better, makes us better.

  [00:31:48] Mosah: Thanks Brendan. Knowing you as I do, I would say, uh, he was right. So that's great, thank you.

  Thanks again to each of you. Could not obviously say thank you enough, um, for all the insights that you've shared on this episode. I know our listeners are appreciative of it. So, uh, I'm gonna go quick, round the round the horn, if you will, and offer any closing thoughts or, or information that you might wanna share with final listeners to learn more about you, your companies.

  David, we'll start with you.

  [00:32:19] David: Sure. If you'd like to learn more about Kiewit and the interesting work that we do, you can go to kiewit.com, that's Kiewit. And if you're interested in expanding your personal network, feel free to reach out to me, uh, David.hecker@kiewit.com.

  [00:32:35] Mosah: Thanks, David. Drew.

  [00:32:37] Drew: Appreciate the opportunity tonight.

  Uh, Mo this was a very interesting conversation. Uh, David and uh, Brenda, appreciate getting the chance to know you. Yeah, please take a look at tenaska.com if you'd like to know more about our company, and you can get ahold of me at, uh, that website look for Drew Fossum and send me a message.

  [00:32:56] Mosah: Thanks so much Drew and Brenda.

  [00:32:58] Brenda: So Sealed Air is not just bubble wrap. We are so committed to the environment and we are in your homes in all kinds of ways. All kinds of things that you have from meat packing to what you may eat your cereal out of, to opening up your bag of m&ms. And we are committed to making this plan in a better place than what we find it.

  And it's really innovative and it is exciting to work with such smart people. You know, these engineers are just phenomenal and the work is fun. So if you would like to come to Charlotte, I'm telling you it's number five city in the country, people are moving here and droves, y'all. So please, I'd be more than happy to talk to you.

  My email address is very simple brendamorris@sealedair.com.

  [00:33:49] Mosah: Thanks so much to each of you for joining us on this episode, really appreciate it.

  [00:33:56] Richard: Thank you for joining us on Hiring Insights. Remember, you can learn more about Top Talent Advocates and listen to other episodes by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and click on the Podcast.

  You can also email us at tta@toptalentadvocates.com

David Hecker, Brenda Morris, Drew Fossum | Navigating Your Legal Career Path

This episode of Hiring Insights features three attorneys: Brenda Morris, Drew Fossum, and David Hecker. Brenda is the Vice President, Assistant General Counsel, Litigation, Employment and Compliance at Sealed Air, Drew is the Vice President and General Counsel at Tenaska, Inc., and David is the Group General Counsel for Kiewit. Part 1 of this 2-part episode focuses on their paths to an executive level legal career, strategies, and the importance of networking.

• Career journeys: they’re never linear. What did you expect to happen along the way, and what are some things that happened that you weren’t quite expecting?

• You can’t always control the options that you’ll have at various points in your career, but they’re critical junctures. The more you have thought through some type of strategy, the better prepared you’ll be.

• Taking on new opportunities, constantly absorbing knowledge, finding value in mentors and consistently networking, all play major parts in leading you down the most opportune path.

• Building and cultivating a professional network.

• Going in-house as an executive is a dual functioning role, what should you be aware of to bring value across cross-functional teams?

• Three words to encourage you to get out of comfort zone when it comes to networking.

• Podcast Transcript

  [00:00:00] Richard: Welcome to Hiring Insights. The podcast that provides insight into the executive hiring process and experience, whether you are a job seeker, a people leader, a recruiter, an executive coach, or simply interested in talent, there is something here for you on the Hiring Insights. Today's episode is presented by Top Talent Advocates, where we advocate for executive and legal talent.

  You can learn more about Top Talent Advocates, listen to other episodes, and hire great talent by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and clicking on podcast. Now here's your host for Hiring Insights, Mosah Fernandez Goodman.

  [00:00:44] Mosah: Brenda, David, Drew, thanks so much for joining me tonight. I can't tell you how much I appreciate both your time and what I know will be a really interesting set of, of insights. So, before we dive into the career that each of you has built and done so well in building, I was hoping that you could share a little bit about who you are, what you're reading, watching, following, just the interesting parts about you that are outside of the law for a moment.

  And let's start with David.

  [00:01:13] David: Sure. Well, I'm watching, binge watching Yellowstone with my wife. That's our favorite show. We love sports and my wife and I love to travel a lot, so we're happy that the pandemic has eased and we're able to get back to doing what we enjoy the most. We live in Omaha, Nebraska, but I'm actually participating right now from downtown Los Angeles.

  And it's kind of part and parcel of the career that I've got. I go where the problems are and they're rarely in Omaha. So I get to spend a lot of time on the road and since our kids are grown, my wife is able to join me on a lot of trips.

  [00:01:51] Mosah: That’s great, thanks so much, David. Brenda, tell us a little bit about yourself.

  [00:01:56] Brenda: Same. We are at the travelers. We just recently, Mosah knows this, got back from the Maldives. We were, that's one of the bucket list trips that we wanted to take. You know, I was always fascinated with those huts over the water. I recommend don't stay in them just cause it, it looks romantic, it looks wonderful, and I love the sound of the waves. But when you stay in those huts, it's more like you're in a washing machine. It's like slush, slush, slush. So it was very wonderful and romantic, but I'd rather stayed on a bungalow on the beach and hear the roar of the waves. But also love to cook. So we entertain a lot at our home and we are recent transplants to Charlotte, North Carolina.

  My husband and I are from the Washington, DC area, but we have lots of family that have made it their quest to come here several times in that short period of time, just so they can sit around, laugh, drink with us, and eat a lot of my food.

  [00:02:54] Mosah: Great, thanks so much Brenda and Drew, tell us a little bit about you.

  [00:02:58] Drew: Well, thanks Mo. I am an Omaha, Nebraska resident. Also, spent a big chunk of my career living in Washington, DC however, and working for a couple of different law firms and then as fate would have it in the energy industry, which I'm involved in. Moved further west and spent some time in Houston and two tours of duty in Omaha and back again and enjoy it a lot and to establish my bonafides as a Midwesterner.

  I will admit to you that after the podcast recording tonight, I will finish packing up my stuff for an ice fishing trip that I'm heading out on tomorrow morning in South Dakota.

  [00:03:35] Mosah: Wow. And does it sound like a washing machine when you're on the lake, or is that not?

  [00:03:40] Drew: I hope not, that would be really, really bad.

  [00:03:43] Mosah: Thanks, Drew. All right. So now that you know a little bit about the folks on a personal level, um, let's dive into your career paths. And the first question's gonna go to, let's start with you, Brenda, on this one. What did you expect that happened to happen in your career path? What'd you not expect?

  And maybe just for those who don't already know you or haven't already looked you up on LinkedIn, maybe just walk through the high level of your, of what you've accomplished over your tenure as an attorney in a couple of different roles.

  [00:04:14] Brenda: Yeah. I started out as a government attorney working as a prosecutor for the Manhattan DA's office and absolutely positively loved the job, thought I was gonna be there forever.

  Loved New York, loved the people, loved the trials. The experience was amazing because it's New York. Every case is different. The juries are always a crapshoot. It is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're gonna get. And so it was a great training ground. My parents were sick, so I'm from DC and they asked me to come back home.

  So that's how I ended up at the Justice Department. I came back to DC, kind of came back, you know, begrudgingly cuz I hated leaving New York and had no idea that the best job in the world was the job I came to at DOJ in the public integrity section, which was a small team of attorneys that were agnostic to prosecuting and investigating political corruption as well as any kind of conflict of interest. Like a local US attorney's office shouldn't look into an investigation of their own judge, federal judges or FBI, CIA. So we'd come in and conduct those investigations and trials if necessary. So it was a fabulous job. Um, loved it until I kind of ran outta runway.

  I became the number two in on charge of our office, the principal deputy chief, and then I was the acting chief, and I missed doing trials. I wanted to continue doing trials, and I just said, finally, let me dust off my resume and just see. Maybe I wanna go in private practice.

  I told three people, and one of those three people said, hey, I don't know the company, but there's a company locally that's looking for someone to start an internal investigations team, and I think you'd be great.

  Yeah, give my name. And that's how I became the, I started the investigations team with Booz Allen Hamilton, a government consulting company that specializes in cybersecurity for the government. And that was a fantastic job. I enjoyed it immensely. It was always something different. And then the next thing I knew, after a couple changes, I met someone. As a matter of fact, in networking as Mosah knows, and they said, I might be looking for somebody to do some litigation for me. And I said, sure, let me know.

  And it ended up becoming the job I have now as the Vice President of Litigation, Employment and Compliance at Sealed Air, which is bubble wrap. So then that's why recent transplant, the Charlotte, because that's where bubble wrap is, the home.

  [00:06:49] Mosah: The home of bubble wrap. Thank you. Drew, you wanna tell us a little bit about your career journey? I know you mentioned law firms and how you got there, but maybe share a little bit more about what you expected to happen and maybe some things that happened that you weren't quite expecting.

  [00:07:06] Drew: Yeah. Glad to Mo it. I, I guess I'd start by, uh, go back to the Midwestern aspect of my life.

  I'm actually from this part of the country and became a foreign exchange student in law school and went to school in Dallas. It was an interesting experience, but I was even at that point interested in the energy industry and the, uh, kind of the confluence of law regulation and public policy and the energy industry was a great case study and that still is.

  So after law school went to work in Washington, DC with a big Texas based law firm, spent 11 years total in DC with a couple of different law firms representing energy clients in transactions regulatory matters. Litigation, a little bit of lobby and kind of a broad cross-section things, but the common thread being representing energy clients.

  At that point, I was given an opportunity to move in-house, which seemed like a great opportunity at the time, I had young kids. And the position was in Omaha, Nebraska, interestingly, and with a large pipeline, natural gas pipeline subsidiary of a company that none of you have heard of. It was called Enron.

  And I was at the branch campus here in Omaha minded my own business as a pipeline lawyer. And then in what turned out to be the year of the Enron bankruptcy, my boss retired and I was given the opportunity to become general counsel of the pipeline group for Enron. All of its interstate pipeline businesses, uh, we're still unpacking boxes in the house when later that fall, the company went off a cliff and ultimately went bankrupt in early December.

  So kind of a traumatic transition in my career. And I guess just to answer the question, you started with Mo, I wanted to lead up to that example. One of the things about planning a career in advance is curve balls are thrown. What you need to do is make sure they don't hit you in the head.

  And it turned out the interstate pipeline businesses, along with Enron's electric utility businesses were about the only part of the company that was consistently profitable before and after the bankruptcy. So I stayed on, learned far more about bankruptcy law than I would ever care to know.

  Eventually was given an opportunity to move on to a different company here in Omaha and move back. And I have more than a few people who can look a diehard Nebraska bred Husker fan in the eye and say, I know you love Nebraska and it's the best place in the world to live, but you were born here. I actually moved here twice.

  But the rest is history. At Tenaska ever since going on 16 years and best job I ever had. Love being general counsel of a non-public, but still fairly large enterprise. Um, don't miss the sec regulation aspects of my job at all. But it’s been a lot of fun.

  [00:10:06] Mosah: Thanks Drew. And now onto David.

  David, you've had a really interesting, varied career yourself, um, hoping you can share a little bit about your path and what you expected, and then certainly I think our listeners are all really excited to learn more about Kiewit and your role within it.

  [00:10:24] David: Sure. Well, I'll start by saying that I was actually born in San Francisco and grew up in California, so that makes me an anomaly living in Omaha.

  I too choose to live there. Um, and that just, I guess, is a great selling point for what a great city it is. After graduating law school, I went to, was hired by the firm that I clerked for, for two summers, and I think that's fairly typical for new grads. I was there for 18 months and I got recruited by a firm that I, we had a trial against.

  I was a third chair lawyer in charge of briefing on a construction case. I actually represented a public utility in that case, and it had construction elements. And the firm on the other side was a litigation boutique firm that specializes in construction and they had a need. And so they recruited me over, and I was there for 10 years.

  I made partner and then I got recruited to the one big law firm in Nebraska, and managed an office for them and kind of traveled around a bit to different offices, did a variety of work. Throughout my career, I've traveled kind of to where the disputes were. And then, I was recruited 20 years ago, 2003 to join Kiewit, and I've done a variety of tasks with them.

  Kiewit is one of the largest construction and engineering firms in North America. We have about a third of our operations in Canada. We operate coast to coast in pretty much every market in the construction industry. I guess about seven years ago, eight years ago, we had a very large dispute in Los Angeles where I'm at right now.

  It involved the large highway project and it was a significant multi hundred millions of dollar dispute. And they sent me out here to try and recover as much of that as possible. And so that went relatively well. Everybody was happy with the outcome and they had another dispute piled up and they said, well, hey, you learned so much on the last one, why don't you take over all of them? So we reorganized our department and Group General Counsel is the title they've given me, but I oversee all claims, litigation, government investigations.

  You know, I, as I describe it, anything bad happening with the company, they assign me to it. So I'm not at too many ribbon cuttings, but I do get to go to court.

  We're very active in our engagement with outside counsel on matters. Much more so than a lot of our peer firms. And so we're active roles in cases. While, I don't appear as the first chair in matters, you know, we're doing everything from writing questions to editing briefs, directing the strategy that should be implemented.

  We have accumulated so much experience over such a breadth of topics and really large dollar on disputes. Frankly, most of the outside council that we use haven't had that level of experience. So it's a very collaborative relationship that we are able to develop. And, as I say, I'm tending towards the end of my career.

  So I have a lot of really interesting experiences I'm happy to pass along to others, so this is a great opportunity to do that.

  [00:13:37] Mosah: Thanks so much, David. And for our listeners, I think if they're sitting at their computer or they're listening to this on their drive, I think each one of them will likely be impressed by the variety of, of paths that each of you have has sort of had in your career.

  Right? So nothing was quite linear. And I think if I'm, if I'm a listener to, to each of your backgrounds and don't know each of you as well as I already do, I think I'd be curious to know, and this question's really for whoever wants to take it first. What did you use to help guide your paths and, and really what helped guide you on that journey?

  It can't just be fate or luck? Anyone want to weigh in on, on what helped guide you on those paths?

  [00:14:19] Drew: I'll offer a thought or two, Mo on that. I've actually in thinking about this podcast and things that I might share, that was something that I kept being drawn back to that I mentioned I really enjoy my current job.

  I think it's a perfect match for my skillsets, and I hope and think that I add a fair amount of value to our company. If you'd asked me as a first- or second-year lawyer how I would explain how I arrived at my dream job 35 years later, I would've, as a young lawyer, assumed that there would've been a lot more deliberate, brilliant strategy involved.

  But looking back at that, from where I sit now, I don't see much of that. I see, some curve balls. I see some, some bean balls narrowly avoided. And I see some good judgment. I see some, you know, by accident, consistently good networking and wonderful contacts that I've met throughout the years.

  But I guess just kinda, I've got three kids and thinking back to when they were younger, the kind of thing that my wife and I would provide them as advice often included the phrase, make good choices. You can't control the options that you'll have at various points in your career, but they're, when you, when you reach Yogi Barrow, right?

  When you reach the fork in the road and you gotta take one, you gotta take it. And they're critical junctures in your career. The more you have thought through in advance what would be better and what would be worse of various possible outcomes, the better prepared you'll be for those forks in the road.

  [00:15:48] Mosah: Thank you. David, Brenda, anything to add either from your personal experience or to build on what Drew was just mentioning?

  [00:15:55] David: I would echo what Drew said, and I've actually had this conversation recently. You know, after a number of years, 30 plus years of practicing, you can look back and identify a number of crossroads in your career that led you to the point you're at.

  In the moment, you don't necessarily appreciate what's significant. You know, I didn't appreciate that my role as third chair lawyer on a case was gonna lead me to another firm, and then that led me to another opportunity. I guess the lesson as I look back, it would be always look for opportunities to do more, to challenge yourself, to get more experience, to look for mentors.

  I can't capture all of the value I've obtained from mentors. I always tell people I take a little bit from every person I've ever met, that I admired or looked for and, and I'm a compilation of that. And so anytime you see somebody that's doing something in a way that you wish you did it, steal that idea, or that approach, or the way they dress or the way they…anything, it is that, that makes you one step further.

  And then I would say I tried to read a lot as a trial lawyer. I wanted to read about what great trial lawyers did and it was a way to accelerate, um, I guess my comfort in dealing with challenging situations that maybe, you know, my career path wouldn't have suggested I was ready for. And it just gave me some level of comfort that, hey, I've read about somebody handling something like this.

  This is how it was done. And so when something was presented, I felt like I had a, a basis to rely upon. So mentors, take on as much diverse opportunities as you can and do your best work at all times, cuz you never know when that next opportunity is watching you.

  [00:17:45] Mosah: Thanks David. Brenda, anything to add to that question?

  [00:17:50] Brenda: I think this is all great advice, and the only thing I would add is just stepping up to the plate when the opportunity, don't be afraid to, to stretch and do it with a good attitude. And if you're gonna, if you're gonna step up to the plate, do it with a good attitude because nobody wants to work with somebody who is a grump.

  And if you are gonna complain, you know, you might as well take it elsewhere. If you're gonna do a good job, do a good job because you wanna do a good job. And, you know, I, I believe that if you make it this far in life, you're smart. I think the, the part that is the extra cherry on top is being someone that you wanna work with.

  Having the, a good work ethic and being the utility player. You know, being willing to, to roll up your sleeves and, you know, and step in when, where needed. I think that shows, you know, when you're a hard worker and people pay attention to it, and just as David said, you know, you never know who's watching, who's paying attention and they circle back.

  But also, I think if I had anything to do differently, um, I would've been more deliberate in my networking. Um, I met a lot of great people, and Mosah knows, but I met 'em and I kept them as friends because I just thought they were interesting. I never thought about it from the standpoint of hey, this could probably get me to another level.

  I just said, they're pretty cool. I like what they do, and I would ask a lot of questions, but I would, in looking back, I think I would've been a little more deliberate, even though things didn't work out so badly. But I would've probably given a little more planning to it.

  [00:19:21] Mosah: Brenda, you've answered my next question already, which is focused on networking and relationship building. So, um, you know, one of the things that when we're working with job seekers or those who are wanting to help manage their careers in, in new and better ways, it always comes back to people. People hire people. People connect people with people.

  And so I'm hoping we can spend a little bit of time talking about networking and relationship building and just generally how that intersects with managing one's career. So Brenda, you teed it up perfectly. I think the next question that I'd like to throw at the group is, you know, how have you really worked to build and cultivate your professional networks?

  How have you been intentional about that? Or what have you seen work that maybe you didn't get to take advantage of that you'd recommend to those listening questions out there for any of you.

  [00:20:11] Brenda: I think being inquisitive. I mean, I think that people are animals, so we kind of sense when someone is genuine or not genuine.

  And you're right, Mosah, most people gravitate towards people they like. So, um, I think in the networking experience, not being so ginger or afraid to reach out, if you're gonna reach out, reach out, but do it on a real level that you really are coming not with some contrived questions, but real questions.

  If I reach out it, I might say, well, hypothetically speaking, if I had a situation and I want to know, because there's someone who's either dealt with a situation like that, or I think they may have some knowledge. I mean, reinventing the wheel is crazy. Why start from scratch? I, I like being able to pull from people in my pool of, of friends and, and folks that I've met along the way, and they seem to genuinely appreciate that.

  [00:21:12] Mosah: Thank you.

  [00:21:14] David: Yeah, I would just add, Brenda used the word deliberate and, and I would be a poster child for having not been deliberate. Um, you know I have not maintained consistency in the relationships. They're segmented, they're project specific, and I missed that. Um, you know, when you're an in-house attorney, it's not as critical to build a network per se, but the reality is I hire people I know.

  Uh, when recruiting people to work for me, it's, I wanna spend a lot of time with them, get to know 'em. I hire outside council that I already have a relationship with, so it is important to kind of, I think, reach out, um, get out of your comfort zone. It's not a natural thing for me to just go to events and, you know, be a social butterfly at all.

  Uh, but to the extent you're comfortable, I would say get out and then be consistent. And it's just about polite. Reach out, drop somebody a note, a text, whatever. How are you going? Congratulations on this latest win I just read about whatever it is. If it's honest, um, and timely and, you don't even need to be thinking of something specifically that you want to get out of it.

  But those relationships, again, without knowing what the next opportunity is gonna be, they just provide more opportunities for you. Uh, I think to have that call come to you, that's a surprise. And hey, we need you for a job. Because I know, well, the people I've hired, I did not know them as lawyers. I knew 'em as people first and I thought, hey, this is a person that would fit in our culture.

  They've got the skillsets that I need, and I went out and sought them as opposed to just opening a door. So the broader your, um, your network is, I think the more opportunities that presents for you.

  [00:23:08] Mosah: Thanks, Drew?

  [00:23:11] Drew: Yeah, those are all good comments. And I guess I'd, I'd second one and then offer a, a different thought.

  Um, I think the default setting for very experienced senior lawyers in our profession is to want to provide advice and to welcome inbounds from people who want to establish a relationship and network. I mean, I'm, I'm always a little bit flattered maybe, but intrigued when someone I don't know, or I just met at a conference or, uh, you know, have an acquaintance with reaches out to me and says, hey, do you have time? I’d like to talk.

  Uh, and my default setting, and I think it's very common among people I've talked to about this topic, is, heck yeah, that'd be fun. Let's set some time aside and, and let's talk. The other observation I'd make is, I guess I've had a, a, maybe a somewhat unique opportunity to build networks more broadly and earlier than younger lawyers often get the chance to, to build.

  And it was partly by the happenstance of beginning my career in DC working at a big international law firm and being an energy lawyer. There is a specialized energy bar association that happens to be headquartered in DC and most of its membership, not surprisingly is DC and Houston. And in the very early years of, being an attorney, I joined the Bar Association, began to attend events.

  Ran into people that I had run into, uh, in my regulatory practice or in my transactional practice, and began to build relationships with these people and make some friends outside of the practice, uh, many of whom are still friends today, some of whom I'm still, they're senior partners in law firms back in DC and I'm sending work to.

  But if you get the opportunity as a relatively junior lawyer to join the membership of a specialized bar association relevant to your practice area, by all means do it and volunteer for the committees. You get the speaking opportunity. It's a pain to prepare for and, and deliver, but it's worthwhile and further expands your network.

  And I look back again, having never heard the word networking, I can't claim that this was a deliberate strategy on my part, but, uh, doing more of that maybe than I thought I really had time to do at the point and time in my career when I did, turned out to be a pretty good idea.

  [00:25:28] Mosah: Well certainly the tie that sort of each of you have to one another is that you have practiced law, right? You've practiced law either in the government or in a law firm, but you're also, uh, executives. And I'm wondering if setting aside the fact that you have a, a credential and a license that is different than many of your colleagues, if you'd think about networking across functions.

  Um, so as a general counsel Drew, how, how do you broaden your network with, within the finance space, right? And is that, uh, something that you'd be, you know, interested in, in encouraging or providing advice on? And so from an executive’s position, cuz all of you are also in house now, does that answer change as you think about sort of your dual function both as lawyer and as a corporate exec?

  [00:26:12] Drew: Yeah, great question Mosah. There is definitely, uh, an aspect of the in-house practice when you rise to the level that you function as an executive, particularly at the C-suite that is, is different than practicing law and representing clients and litigating or uh, executing transactions. And I, I guess if I could point at one thing that was not obvious to me in my younger years, but became obvious later, you have to, if you don't, if you're not born with an interest in and an aptitude for business and accounting and understanding balance sheets, understanding income statements, and being literate in those matters, you better force yourself too, because it will make you a more useful, uh, member of the management team.

  Frankly, it'll allow you to get out of your lane occasionally in a way that adds value, and you're gonna find that your perspective, uh, leads you to things that other people didn't look at or, uh, different insights than the other decision makers on the team had.

  And I've, I've found in my career, particularly the last six or eight years, that, that's part of the value I'm delivering, maybe by accident. But I think it's appreciated.

  [00:27:29] Mosah: Thanks, Drew. David, Brenda, anything to add to that?

  [00:27:33] David: Well, I would just say I agree and I think on the accounting side, the cost side, every case you have, unless it's a criminal matter, involves dollars and cents.

  And it's surprising to me how many lawyers are completely dependent upon outside consultants to deal with damages issues, quantification issues, understanding how you know, costs are incurred and spent and accounted for, and that's, I think, a mistake. If I, when a trial lawyer, I want to have a mastery, uh, and understanding of the issues that I'm going to be arguing and not rely upon someone else and just trust them to get it right.

  I find that to be an error and so I agree a hundred percent. I actually started a, um, executive MBA program at Columbia for that purpose, just focused on the financial and accounting to get a better understanding of our client’s financial needs, to get a better understanding of, of county issues and cost issues.

  And I founded it very, very useful as I've gone forward and that's relevant to my career. I would say if you were in a different practice area, you might wanna look at other relevant, um, issues pertaining to the industry that you're practicing in, right? So if you're a, a pharmaceuticals lawyer, I would think you'd wanna understand things about intellectual property rights and you know, how the insurance reimbursement works and those kinds of things.

  And not at a superficial level, but when you're a young lawyer, that's the time to really learn your craft, I think. And I would take advantage of those opportunities.

  [00:29:08] Mosah: Thanks, David. And I imagine implied in your answers that networking with those who can help you understand that and, and building those partnerships with colleagues both inside and outside of your company is key.

  Is that a fair statement to add to it? All right, thank you. Um, Brenda, anything to add to the conversation on this topic as an executive.

  [00:29:26] Brenda: Sure. Just along the same lines though, um, and just said a different way is know your business. I think if you work across, you know, cross-functional teams and you really understand the business you get, um, coming from the legal team, you get a ton of respect because if you answered questions in a way that you know their business, um, they have a lot of respect for you that, oh, you understand what we're coming, you're just not legal telling us, well, what we can and can't do.

  And especially when it comes from, um, litigation or compliance, you know, you don't wanna be looked at as, oh, here they come, you know, like doctor death, you know, you got the hood and the sickle, and you know off with your head. You know, you're coming because we're all part of a team and we're trying to make this better.

  Uh, I think that goes a long way.

  [00:30:18] Mosah: Thanks. Thank you so much. So in just a few words, maybe two, three words. For those people who, and this is quite honestly the case with clients that we have at all levels, whether they be director level all the way up to C-Suite, uh, some people just don't like to network.

  They're resistant to it for any number of reasons. They're not predisposed to be. I think we heard the term social butterfly earlier in the conversation. What two or three words would you give to someone if they were fearful of, of that whole concept of getting out and, and meeting new folks or giving that presentation or sending the random text message to congratulate someone?

  How would you encourage them?

  [00:30:56] David: I would say do it anywhere.

  [00:30:57] Drew: Three words? I was gonna say if you're resistant to it, my three-word advice would be, get over it.

  [00:31:04] Mosah: Brenda?

  [00:31:05] Brenda: I think be deliberate, be prepared and fearless. Uh, if you are deliberate, at least pick out the people that you would like to have a relationship with.

  So it's not so superficial. Um, understand who they are, what's going on. So be prepared in what kind of questions you may ask or kind of conversations you want to have with that in individual. And be fearless from the standpoint of if you, approach it in a timid manner, it comes off artificial. If you're gonna talk to 'em like an equal, you're gonna talk to 'em like a friend.

  Do that. I think it might be reciprocated.

  [00:31:42] Mosah: Thank you so much everyone. I enjoyed having each of you on the show today. Brenda, Drew, and David learning more about your career paths was truly insightful and inspirational. Next month we will be releasing part 2 of this series when we highlight their insights into how to advance yourself in a job search. Thanks so much.

  [00:32:07] Richard: Thank you for joining us on Hiring Insights. Remember, you can learn more about Top Talent Advocates and listen to other episodes by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and click on the Podcast.

  You can also email us at tta@toptalentadvocates.com

  Description text goes here

Jenny Wood | Navigating a Career Path, Creating Followership as a Leader, and How to Showcase Your Full Potential

Jenny Wood joins Mosah Fernandez Goodman on this episode of Hiring Insights to discuss navigating your career path, how to create followership as a leader, and showcasing your full potential. Jenny is an executive at Google running a large operations team that helps drive tens of billions of revenue per year. She’s also the founder of Own Your Career, one of the largest career development programs in Google’s history with tens of thousands of people benefitting, an author, keynote speaker, mom, avid hiker, and pilot.

• What is the Own Your Career program at Google and what are the practical, actionable strategies that can help navigate a career?

• Your overall happiness depends on having well rounded self-fulfillment both inside and outside of your core job.

• Be bold, be curious, be you.  Utilize your curiosity either as a leader or as someone aspiring to be a leader, it’s okay to not have all of the answers.

• Lateral moves are some of the most powerful moves you can make. Look for the potential and the opportunities it could create for you. "Lateral moves are some of the most powerful moves anyone can make. Your career is not always going to be up into the right. You're going to have twisty, windy paths and zigzag payoffs as Jason Feifer of Entrepreneur Magazine, Editor-in-Chief calls them in his book Built for Tomorrow, which is fantastic. "

• Bullets on your resume. Don’t be vague or generic. There are three things that you must have: numbers, context, and action. "I talk about blockers that we've put in front of ourselves that limit our full potential. I think people get nervous. Oh, but I don't have $5 million I can talk about, but you can make anything quantitative, results can be anything quantitative. It could be number of meetings you led. It could be number of documents you wrote."

• It isn’t about the five-year or ten-plan, it’s about the big, small things that you can do day to day that add up to the long-term plan.

• If anybody wants to succeed, coaching, external guidance, someone to keep you accountable is one of the most important things you can do.

• What qualities make someone a better fit for a leadership role?

• LinkedIn tip: ideas as content.

• Jenny Wood Transcript

  [00:00:00] Richard: Welcome to Hiring Insights. The podcast that provides insight into the executive hiring process and experience, whether you are a job seeker, a people leader, a recruiter, an executive coach, or simply interested in talent, there is something here for you on the Hiring Insights. Today's episode is presented by Top Talent Advocates, where we advocate for executive and legal talent.

  You can learn more about Top Talent Advocates, listen to other episodes, and hire great talent by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and clicking on podcast. Now here's your host for Hiring Insights, Mosah Fernandez Goodman.

  [00:00:44] Mosah: Hi, my name is Mosah Fernandez Goodman and welcome to another episode of Hiring Insights presented by Top Talent Advocates. Today I’m joined by Jenny Wood who is an executive at Google running a large operations team that helps drive tens of billions of revenue per year. She’s also the founder of Own Your Career, one of the largest career development programs in Google’s history with tens of thousands of people benefitting.

  [00:01:13] Mosah: Jenny, thanks so much for joining us today. We're incredibly excited to have you. For those folks who are listening to this and don't necessarily know you already, um, and there'll be some of those. I was hoping you could share a little bit about your background and what sort of gets you excited about work and, and life.

  [00:01:31] Jenny: Well thanks so much for having me, Mosah. I am a Google executive who runs an operations team that sits between sales and engineering. I founded a career development program that’s become quite popular with in Google.

  I’m an author, keynote speaker, a mom of two little kids and to keep things balanced I try to hike every day in Boulder, Colorado where I live and I also fly planes for fun.

  [00:01:59] Mosah: Well thanks so much for sharing a little bit about you personally and obviously our listeners are excited to learn more about your experience, but most importantly, your insights. So, so today we're going to start off by understanding a little bit more about your career. You obviously have risen through the ranks at one of the largest companies in the world.

  In one of the most interesting sectors and dynamic sectors. And so I'm hoping you can maybe walk us through a little bit about the stages of your career progression, how you even got into being a Googler.

  [00:02:31] Jenny: Well, that's a story in and of itself. The way I became a Googler is such a, a microcosm of, of everything I do, which is basically asking for what you want, unapologetically.

  I got to Google in such an untraditional way, and I don't mean untraditional background. I mean literally the way I got my job was so untraditional. I drove to the Google office in Denver, Colorado where I was living with my parents at the time, after I had just traveled through South America with a backpack by myself for three months, and I walked in the door.

  It was an office of maybe 30 people at the time, this was 2006, super teeny tiny. Google was only 6,000 people at the time. I walked in with a printed out resume in my hand. I had applied online, but I'd heard nothing back and I thought there was maybe a formatting issue when I uploaded my resume. So whether that was true or I was just looking for, I really did think that, but I, I seized the opportunity to get in my mom's old Honda stick shift, drive to the office and sit there until someone would speak to me.

  And it was like a shared receptionist who came out, not even a Google employee, and she's like, oh, you can just drop your resume there and I said, no, but I think there's an issue with my resume. I really need to speak to a Google employee. And I was professionally persistent, if you will. And the time I was waiting felt like an excruciating, you know, hour was probably 30 seconds waiting for her to, you know, decide to call somebody or not at the actual Google company.

  And then ultimately, someone did come out and I gave them my resume. I talked through my background. I had just done research at Harvard Business School prior to being abroad. And the rest is history. So what do they say, 80% is just showing up. I literally just showed up, I’m not advocating for that being how I would recommend it, but it worked.

  [00:04:31] Mosah: We offer a lot of services at Top Talent Advocates, but I don't know that we necessarily go and wait in people's lobbies for them, but that that's incredible. Yeah, we do offer gorilla marketing, but that's, that's a different type than what we've heard from other guests and certainly from other clients.

  [00:04:46] Jenny: I would imagine.

  [00:04:48] Mosah: I love this story. And so since you've been at Google and it's got a reputation for being a very creative and obviously forward-looking company, you applied that sort of ingenuity and, and harnessed that culture to create a really large development program. Would you share a little bit about maybe what the program is and what it does?

  [00:05:09] Jenny: Yeah, absolutely. So the Own Your Career program is simply a passion project of mine, and the goal is to help increase confidence of Google employees, give them practical, actionable strategies to navigate their career.

  In any company, Google or otherwise, there's so much ambiguity. There's, there's such a challenge of, you know, where do I even start? What's the first thing I do? How do I manage up? How do I network? What do I do now that we're working from home? And, you know, some companies are fully remote, some are hybrid, some are, you know, struggling with are we in the office?

  Like it's, there's so much to navigate, there's so much uncertainty. There's so much challenge in what any employee has to go through. And because of all of it, there can be so much anxiety and that anxiety is typically in where do I start? What is my first step?

  And I have laid awake plenty of nights, anxious about how do I get time with my boss's boss, because I know it's important to quote unquote manage up. How do I, you know, recover from that typo, that glaring typo in that really important customer meeting? I'm never gonna get the next promotion. My boss is gonna be, you know, that's all she's gonna be thinking about.

  So given my own anxiousness and stress about how I navigate my own career, I really wanted to do something to help other Google employees. So what happened was a couple years ago I was trying to move from a sales role in New York City to a technical role in Boulder. And it was not easy. There's, I was already at a relatively senior stage in my career, so it's not like the positions were a dime a dozen.

  I probably had 60 or so coffee chats. That's 6-0, not one six. That's a lot over a six-month period. And what I did was I just wrote down a Google doc of 15 bullets of things that ultimately helped me land that dream job, that executive role, or very exciting role that I ultimately ended up getting. So by writing down those 15 tips, I simply wanted to remind myself in the future, what are the most practical and tactical things I did that helped me land this job.

  [00:07:15] Mosah: Can you share some of those with us?

  [00:07:17] Jenny: Yeah. Okay. So here's one. One was called notice the eye flick. And what that meant was when I was having a coffee chat with someone, a virtual coffee chat, you could also use this in an interview or any, a one-on-one with your manager. I would notice the eye flick to the upper right corner of the screen.

  That meant to me they were checking the time. Well, time to wrap up that particular answer that I was, that I was giving or that part of the conversation. So that simple, teeny, tiny tip. Notice the eye flick is what I wrote as one of the 15 bullets in that document. That is how specific I'm talking because it's very easy to give ivory tower type of information.

  Oh, you should network or you should manage up, or you should, you know, work on the projects that are most important to your senior leadership. Well, sure, but like how do you start? What do you do? What does your email say to your manager's manager when you're asking them for 20 minutes?

  How can you network if you're introverted? What are some tactics you can use? Maybe it's chat versus in person. So I really wanted to get down to the practical and tactical. I wrote these 15 bullets for myself. It started scaling a little bit as people would come to me for mentorship and I would say, hey, no problem. I'm happy to give you time, but read this doc first. It might get you ahead of the game before we meet.

  And then it started getting shared beyond my knowledge, it went a little bit viral. We put some nicer design behind it, and the rest is history. There are now tens of thousands of Googlers using the program and it's uh, kind of just become this big grassroots thing within the company.

  And now I do separately thought leadership around all sorts of topics around how to thrive both professionally and personally.

  [00:08:54] Mosah: Yeah, that's tremendous. The thing I think people would also like to know is, is the point that you got to at, at the end of your last comment you know, so there's this program within Google and listening to you and reading what you post and, and your sort of material generally, you know, basically the things that we do to research for an interview like this. But if someone wanted to say, listen to you live and in person, or maybe book you for a conference, can you share a little bit about some of the speaking engagements that you're, you're doing and maybe that, that other part of who you are professionally?

  [00:09:28] Jenny: Yeah, so I think of your career as a relationship almost. So, for example, I love my husband dearly. This is, today's our,

  [00:09:39] Mosah: Well, you chased him on a subway, I think.

  [00:09:41] Jenny: I chased him off a subway. Yeah, we can talk about that too. Talk about chasing what you want and achieving it. If you don't ask, you'll never know. I literally chased him off the New York City subway.

  So I love my husband dearly. Today's our ninth anniversary. Despite the fact that we have a wonderful relationship, I would never expect to get all of my fulfillment from just my husband. There are some things that need to be fulfilled by friends or by projects, or by my job that I would never be able to get from my husband.

  So I think about my core job the same way, I love my core job. It's challenging and problem solving, and I lead a wonderful team and I have incredible people above me who inspire me, and yet I would never expect to be a hundred percent fulfilled just from that core job. So whether it's launching and founding this own your career program at Google, or doing external thought leadership and speaking. That is to me, something that just helps me be a well-rounded person overall. And it increases my happiness. It increases my efficiency. Cause I'm quite busy. So, you know, what do they say? If you need something done fast, give it to a busy person. I'm quite busy so I do things very efficiently and it also gives me a lot of fulfillment that I can have both my core job and also the external thought leadership on LinkedIn or, you know, any speaking I do such as this or other outside of my core job, it makes the total package more fun for me and more fulfilling overall.

  [00:11:08] Mosah: That's, um, sort of helping fill your proverbial cup, right? That, that's wonderful advice.

  [00:11:15] Jenny: Yeah. And the way I might offer this to your listeners, is that if you are in a data analytics role at your company, but you love photography, see if, and if you're a small company you're probably not going to have this, but if you're at a bigger company, join the photography club or go to the improv group, you know, in your town and do that every Thursday night at 7:00 PM right? Because those things really do matter in your overall happiness.

  [00:11:45] Mosah: One of the things that the listeners or our audience are, are interested in is understanding sort of how to advance yourself. And you have this wonderful tagline that says, you know, be bold, be curious, be you. I'm wondering if you might in, in sort of the same context of giving this, um, practical yet inspiring advice, share with our listeners how they might use or leverage the concepts that you're getting in that, or you're presenting in that tagline to help advance themselves professionally. Because a lot of folks that we talk to, whether they be clients or people who are simply interested in better understanding how to manage their careers, don't know how to go from a director to a VP level. Don't want to necessarily wear the proverbial gorilla suit and, and go about it in a more creative fashion.

  I can you give some insight in connecting that tagline to how one can help manage their own careers?

  [00:12:46] Jenny: Absolutely. Within, be bold, be curious, be you. Let's focus on, be curious because if we're talking about someone who's trying to get from the director level to the C-suite level, I actually think that the curiosity is the element that is going to be most useful to them.

  So for example, I ask a ton of questions. Let's say I'm at a restaurant with my husband. The server will come over, he'll say, okay, Jenny, ask your questions. Like, we make a joke of it because I ask a ton of questions.

  [00:13:16] Mosah: Is this like Portlandia with what happened to with the chicken kind of thing?

  [00:13:18] Jenny: Exactly, exactly.

  So, I have a reputation for better or for worse of asking a lot of questions. I would say I'm borderline nosy, right? Nosy is got a negative connotation in elementary school, but it can have a really positive connotation in a corporate environment because the more you ask, the more you're going to learn.

  So here's an example. If you're a director and you're at your CEO's town hall, raise your hand and ask what their priorities are for H1 or ask what's keeping them up at night? There are so many people who keep their hands down in anxiety that, you know, that I've had for, for so long in fear. Well, what if I say the wrong thing?

  What if I sound stupid? What if he already covered it and I or she already covered it and you know, it, it looks like I wasn't listening. Or, you know, what if it's something that will, what if I ramble? What if my question is too long? All of these things are barriers we put up that limit our potential to learn, to gain, to understand through asking questions.

  Or let's say you're a leader and you're leading your, your team meeting. Well, great, you don't have to know all the answers. We, as leaders have imposter syndrome all the time too. So when you feel that pain of imposter syndrome rather than putting pressure on yourself that you have to have that brilliant insight about the strategy of the Blue Widgets Project.

  You could turn it back on the team and say, what have you seen in the market that would influence our blue widgets strategy? Or what headwinds have you heard from our customers that would influence how we think about blue widgets versus green widgets? You're just asking the smart leaders who report to you what they've seen, what they've heard, what they know, what they feel

  So the curiosity can go up. It can be asking your, your CEO a question in the town hall. It can go down to the other people you're leading because you don't have to know all the answers. So within, be bold, be curious, be you, I'm particularly passionate about, be curious.

  [00:15:25] Mosah: Both at restaurants and in a professional setting.

  [00:15:28] Jenny: Both at restaurants and otherwise.

  [00:15:30] Mosah: Got it. Awesome. Thank you. So I, I think that's really helpful as people think about upward trajectory and as, as you used the phrase, you know, managing up or, you know, even managing above their direct line.

  [00:15:45] Jenny: Yeah, I call it managing hire.

  [00:15:47] Mosah: Managing hire, okay. I like that. That's great. When someone is managing their career within an organization, certainly the size of Google allows for different opportunities.

  And you alluded to the fact that there probably might not be like a photography club at a mid-size business or a mid-gap, right? As someone looks to potentially, uh, leave an organization, as is often the case, right? The 30-year career gold watch is a rarity. How should people, in your opinion, consider moves laterally and navigating those types of, uh, significant decisions in one's career?

  [00:16:22] Jenny: Lateral moves are some of the most powerful moves anyone can make. Your career is not always going to be up into the right. You're going to have twisty, windy paths and zigzag payoffs as Jason Feifer of Entrepreneur Magazine, Editor-in-Chief calls them in his book Built for Tomorrow, which is fantastic.

  The story will give to highlight how passionate I am about twisty, windy paths and lateral moves is actually that same story of when I moved from this leadership role in New York City to this on a sales team to, uh, this technical team in Boulder. I got that role I mentioned already I was very excited about it.

  It was a great opportunity. But it was on paper, a lateral move. It was going from the same level to the same level. No more pay. In fact less pay cuz it was going from the New York City market to the Boulder market, which are different, you know, uh, costs. And I took it anyway because I saw the potential.

  But what I did not see was how much I might learn simply by changing organizations within the company. So I was going from a sales organization that was super extroverted, and bop, bop, bop on the sales floor. Lots of speaking to think, lots of high energy, lots of rah rah, to a very introverted, quieter, different style of, of organizational culture in this technical team in Boulder.

  And I was struggling. I knew I was struggling. I felt it. I felt like I wasn't quite landing my team's buy-in and I felt nervous. I felt anxious, I felt stressed. And a peer of mine said, Jenny, can I give you some feedback? And I said, sure.

  I love feedback. And she said, you've been interrupting people. And I went and she was right. And it's not that I've never interrupted anybody from that moment on, but I probably do it about 40% less of the time. And I'm so much more aware of it. And the reason I learned that skill that became critical to me being a better leader, critical and more inclusive, and more thoughtful and a better listener overall in general.

  Was because I took a lateral move from one part of an organization to another that had a dramatically different culture where interrupting and bop, bop, bop kind of conversation overlapping was not as expected as the norm, as accepted.

  So the things you learn in a lateral move are tremendous and that's just one example of the many things I've learned in my own lateral. You double your network, you double your skills, you double your problem solving. You just have so much more that you're able to tackle versus staying in the same organization, moving up into the right and not learning as much.

  So I always optimize for learning and advise people to do the same.

  [00:19:31] Mosah: Yeah, tremendous. That's great advice. There's a tool that's needed to move, whether it be up laterally, re-engage in the workforce, and that's a resume. I know you have some thoughts, uh, around what stands out, how to build, how to utilize, and whether regardless of the industry that you're moving into, I'm hopeful that you can give us some insight into what resumes need to have, how they can be utilized, and maybe some things to watch out for.

  [00:20:03] Jenny: Yeah. Well, I hired a brand new team this year. I'm basically running a startup within Google for my core job, my core operational role that sits between sales and engineering.

  So I've seen hundreds and hundreds of resumes in my day, but even just recently, I have looked at a lot of resumes. So to me, there are three things that you want in the vast majority of your bullets on your resume, and that is numbers, context, and action.

  So let's walk through that. Here's what not so good looks like: grew significant amount of revenue at my last company. So grew significant amount of revenue. It's vague. It's generic. It doesn't tell me much.

  Okay, so let's take it one step further. Let's add the number. Grew revenue by 5 million dollars. Okay, well now we're getting somewhere.

  Let's take it a step further. Let's add the context. Grew revenue by 5 million dollars, which was 20% year over year, despite economic headwinds.

  Got two flavors of context there. 20% year over year gives us context as to what it was before, and despite economic headwinds gives us context to just how hard that environment must have been.

  Now, let's take it all the way home. Grew revenue by 5 million dollars, 20% year over year, despite economic headwinds by launching weekly office hours for the customer, which had never been done.

  So in that last one, we have the number, we have the context, and we have the action that you took. And by the way, like you said, this could be for any industry. This is for any role, any position. It's also a great internal tool for asking for that next promotion, asking for a raise, because I advise to any of your listeners to write some quarterly accomplishment bullets, whether your manager asks for them or not.

  You might have your single annual review, but if you send a couple of bullets at the end of quarter. With things like that, with the number, the context, and the action you took, you are going to be in great shape when you go to have that annual review, and I recommend sending it to your manager at the end of each quarter, and then taking your best of greatest hits and creating a one sheet summary.

  This doesn't have to be a 10-page document, a one sheet summary before your annual review to tell your own story, right? Everyone has a personal brand. Everyone has a personal brand, whether they like it or not, whether they know it or not. So you may as well own your personal brand and own your accomplishments as, as I've now taken it more toward the, how you can leverage it internally versus just on a resume.

  [00:22:41] Mosah: Yeah, no, that’s great advice. And while resumes don't necessarily excite an entire population, they certainly get people like you and I excited. Oh, of course. Yes.

  [00:22:50] Jenny: Of course, but we're weird .

  [00:24:40] Mosah: We’re special. Yeah. The methodology that we use for resumes without making it sound formulaic, and we've mentioned this on previous episodes, is there's a very common acronym, STAR methodology.

  The situation, task, action result. We tend to encourage our clients, and it's challenging depending on the role that someone inhabits, but to use RSTAR because the result is why someone is being hired. Anyone can be in a situation, literally, anyone can hold any role that doesn't require licensure, whether they, and they can be assigned a task and they can take a certain action, but it's all about the results, right?

  That's what you're really being hired for. So I, I loved your example of walking people through the different sort of hearkening back to my law school days, right? Sort of you know a level one answer, if you will, versus what's actually being sought. Right? And that was a perfect example, so thank you for sharing that.

  [00:23:51] Jenny: Sure. And I think what sometimes, you know, I talk about blockers that we've put in front of ourselves that limit our full potential. I think people get nervous. Oh, but I don't have $5 million I can talk about, but you can make anything quantitative, results can be anything quantitative. It could be number of meetings you led. It could be number of documents you wrote. It could be, uh..

  [00:24:10] Mosah: Something you were a part of the team and organization as a whole. You, you know, we often encounter that with our lawyer clients, our legal folks who say, well, I don't have a book of business or I didn't actually do well, you were a part of, right? And so having that context, supporting sales is also really a key.

  [00:24:30] Jenny: Absolutely. And what I heard you just flip is the candidate saying, well, I don't have a book of business. I don't have anything to say there, and you're advising you are a part of, to me is a confidence shift. That's someone saying, well, I don't feel like there's enough that I did.

  I don't think there's anything that's interesting enough to write home about. That is a confidence shift. That is what I try to help people get over with these teeny tiny tactical strategies because let's be real I, I personally feel that it is not about the five-year plan. It is not about the 10-year plan.

  I've never had a five-year plan. I've never had a 10-year plan. It is not these big, colossal decisions or strategic moves. It is about the big, small things you do day to day that add up to have the long-term effect you want to have. Every action you take, every email, you write, every conversation that could be more powerful.

  Every meeting you lead that could be more purposeful are all casting votes for the future career you want to have. So to me, it's these teeny tiny actions. The results, the star method in your bullets, in your resume or your accomplishments doc. It's the two-sentence email that you sent to your boss's boss asking for time.

  It's the actually sending it versus not sending it. These are the small actions that add up to be the long-term plan.

  [00:25:58] Mosah: If you’re starting your executive level job search now and, and you've walked through some of those more practical tips, how do you see people engaging advisors? So it could be a coach, it could be a peer, it could be accessing information online. How do you see people sort of enriching themselves? What, what advice or guidance would you give to people starting their job search or starting to contemplate their next move?

  [00:26:23] Jenny: Coaching is one of the most fulfilling and productive activities I've engaged in in the last several years as a coachee, as a beneficiary of an executive coach. I had my session with my executive coach yesterday and we talked about my need for external validation. I mean, that's big stuff. It's stuff that blocks me to be more productive.

  It's stuff that blocks me to come into my own full potential. We talked about how I was offered the opportunity to, this is a big opportunity I was offered within Google and I turned it down. A couple years ago I would've been salivating at the opportunity, and so she helped coach me through, how do I say no to something really big?

  If anybody wants to succeed, coaching, external guidance, uh, someone to keep you accountable is one of the most important things you can do. Sure, we can all get a gym membership and go to the gym. We sometimes we know the things we need to do to get a job. We have to have the right, you know, we have to get, hone our bullets on our resume and not have any spelling mistakes and be on LinkedIn, I think is an important one, which we can talk about too.

  But an accountability partner and somebody who just as a fresh perspective and can see things that you don't always see is so helpful. The gym references. You can go to the gym, you can sign up for gym membership, but a personal trainer's going to tell you like, well, all right, you got to up the game now.

  You got to do; you can do 20 reps now…

  [00:28:04] Mosah: You don't really need to do 45 minutes of the neck machine. Right?

  [00:28:06] Jenny: You don’t need to do 45 minutes of the, is it a neck massage machine? I'd love to do 45 minutes of that.

  [00:28:10] Mosah: That's great. That'd be great. That I think that's probably recommended. One other quick question about, flipping the table having come out of hiring a lot of folks recently and building a whole new team, what are some of those things that you look at and say, wow, those are the qualities or those are the attributes that you need and want on your team? Forgetting about the sort of task specific skills and then what are, are some of those red flags where you go, wow, that person would've gotten it, but for ________ or, I can't believe they ________ fill in the blank. Any insight on that?

  [00:28:45] Jenny: Well, I'm really passionate about the first part of that, which is what qualities make someone a better fit for a leadership role? Two things come to mind being a net positive energy contributor and humility. If you think of the leaders that you admire, and I'm sure you speak to lots of leaders that, that you admire or look up to, it's unlikely that someone will be a real downer.

  A real downer just kind of bum you out or make you kind of feel depressed, right? I mean, yes, bring your whole self to work, but the leaders that I admire typically have high positive energy. It’s high versus low energy, and it's positive versus negative energy. If you think of that as a two by two.

  People who inspire you. People who, even if it's gonna be a tough year, say we can get through this and here's our plan. And yes, buckle your seatbelts it's gonna be a bumpy year, but given the tenacity, the resilience, and the capacity and the talent that this team has shown, I know that you have the ability to thrive in this year.

  That's the kind of high, you know, net positive energy contribution that I always admire in leaders, cuz that inspires me to feel like we can do it. We got this like a good coach, right? Think of it as a football coach or a swimming coach, they'd probably have a similar vibe prepping someone before that big game or that big meet.

  And the second is humility. So two of my favorite things a leader can say are, I don't know and I was wrong.

  You don't want to say that all the time. We want our leaders to have some answers and to, you know, be right a lot of the time. But when someone has the ability in a leadership role to have that presence of mind to say, I don't know, or I was wrong, that to me is a sign of strength, not weakness.

  The other thing would go along that falls under the category of humility is the concept of servant leadership. So I'll offer a strategy there for leaders who are listening and I call this the support suffix. You're going to have lots of one-on-ones, one-on-one meeting that is with your direct reports.

  At the end of every one-on-one meeting with your direct report, regardless of their level, I recommend closing your one-on-one conversation with this question. How can I support you this week? How can I support you this week? You are there to serve. That humility, that desire to help, that desire to remove their roadblocks, to boost them up when they need to be boosted up, to give them, you know, challenging projects that will help them thrive and grow to help them through that tricky customer dynamic or that stressful situation with a fellow employee at the company.

  That is the stuff that makes you a fantastic leader, that creates followership for you of people who want to work with you. How can I support you this week?

  [00:31:47] Mosah: So if people want to better understand where your thoughts are about the future, or they're interested in, you know, maybe contacting you or perhaps even booking you for a speaking engagement, anything you'd like to share about the types of work that you're doing outside of Googling?

  [00:32:04] Jenny: I have a website, itsjennywood.com. That's, itsjenny wood.com. You can sign up for my biweekly newsletter. It's super short, under two-minute read. Really practical and tactical, similar to the stuff I shared in this conversation. And I, I post nearly every day on LinkedIn, so that's a good way to follow me as well.

  I'm writing a book so in a couple years here, the book will come out and it'll be chock full of sample language you can use, you know, email examples. I can't emphasize it enough. I love the practical, tactical, small things that as I call my newsletters called big, small things. I love the non-pie in the sky, ivory tower type of advice.

  I like the very specific, very tactical, very practical guidance that I can help others implement because that is what adds up to the total package of successful career. Ultimately in life I want to give everybody seven minutes back every day and seven very specific minutes. I want to give everybody back seven minutes of more sleep. That you're not tossing and turning thinking, what should I write to my boss's boss? I want to write the email for you and have you just go copy and paste it. I want to give seven minutes back of you not waking up in the middle of the night with a start thinking, oh my gosh, how do I network? How do I network while working from home? What do I do?

  What's the first step I take? How do I do it if I'm an introvert? I want to give people seven minutes back of sleep by helping guide them through a great way to, you know, manage up when you're thinking through how to have that weekly one-on-one with your manager, what should I say, what should I prepare? And in that case, it's a, a one-on-one doc that you always prepopulate with business topics first, in my opinion, people topics second, and then some you know, career development topics.

  [00:34:03] Mosah: One final question for you. If you could afford to give someone seven minutes back as far as utilization of their social media, which I know you do really well and very impactfully. In fact, I think that's what drew our attention to you initially, and as a potential guest and as someone who is leading the way, what seven minutes of advice would you give? Not that the answer has to be seven minutes, but how would you save someone seven minutes on that LinkedIn usage or social generally?

  [00:34:34] Jenny: I did not use social media until a year ago, whatsoever. I did not ever post a picture on Facebook, or maybe when my kid was born, you know, my daughter was born five years ago, but I didn't have a login to LinkedIn.

  My hands were shaking, my hands were literally shaking the first time I posted on LinkedIn just about a year ago, maybe slightly over. My hands were then shaking again the first time I posted on mobile. I was like, I can't possibly do this on mobile. What? I'm sure I'm going to do it all wrong. And now I post every day.

  So my quick tip there is concept called ideas as content. This also came from Jason Pfeiffer, who I referenced earlier. Ideas as content means that anything can be content. So for example, today’s my ninth anniversary with my husband. So I wrote a post about the importance of bringing, you know, business strategy skills into your relationship.

  So for example, at work as a leader, you would very easily delineate between who's pulling the data and who's presenting the data to the customer, right? Clear rules and responsibilities. Division of labor. So at home, are you intentional about who's doing the dishes and who's doing laundry? Right. So at work, you would never want to be super in the weeds about how someone executes their product launch, right?

  That would be bad leadership, bad management. You'd want to trust them. At home, are you micromanaging how your partner plans your vacation? Right. So the post today was just thinking about how, oh, okay, it's my anniversary, what are some business skills that are kind of related to relationship skills? And I just wrote a couple lists of things that were related.

  So the reason I share that is because any idea you have could be a LinkedIn post. You could see something as you're hiking, like I do every day. I invite people to feel no pressure to say something genius. It's more about the repetition of the habit, of putting your ideas out there. Oh, some will be great, some will be meh, but not everything you do can be better than average.

  That's just not possible mathematically.

  [00:36:38] Mosah: That's right. Well, for the record, I'm dishes and not laundry. I felt comfortable sharing that with you, Jenny. I don't know. You know, and right now it's only been an hour, but you know.

  [00:36:50] Jenny: Love it.

  [00:36:52] Mosah: Thank you so much for joining us. Jenny Wood of Google everyone please reach out, consider engaging for an exchange of ideas or perhaps to book Jenny and just certainly make sure you follow her on LinkedIn. Thanks so much for joining us today. We really appreciate it.

  [00:37:08] Jenny: Thank you. Such a highlight of my day to have this conversation.

  Take care.

  [00:37:13] Richard: Thank you for joining us on Hiring Insights. Remember, you can learn more about Top Talent Advocates and listen to other episodes by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and click on the Podcast link.

  You can also email us at tta@toptalentadvocates.com

Brian Potts | Changing the Landscape for Law Students and How to Translate Rejection in a Job Search into Motivation

Brian Potts, Partner at Perkins Coie, joined us to provide insights into the changing landscape for law students, how to translate rejection in a job search into motivation, and what you can do to maximize your job search strategy. He is also a writer whose has been featured in Forbes, Wall Street Journal, Politico, Bloomberg, the Wisconsin State Journal, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, the Weekly Standard and author of the book The Jobless Lawyer’s Handbook: How to Get Hired as a Lawyer. He is an inventor, a professor and helped found The Legal Mentor Network, the first nation-wide, free mentorship program for law students and recently barred attorneys.

• It’s rare that anyone regrets going to law school, but the system is failing to adequately prepare law students for the job search, among other things.

• Advice for those headed to law school or even considering a career in the legal field.

• Do you know what rejection is? It’s proof that you’re trying.

• The Jobless Lawyer’s Handbook: How to Get Hired as a Lawyer, a lot of the information (resume, networking, interview prep) is relevant to anyone, not just young lawyers.

• The Legal Mentor Network: transforming an informal network to fulfill a need into a non-profit serving thousands of mentees.

• When searching for your first job or even later in life, stop and strategically think about where are you the most marketable? Can you be flexible geographically to get a steppingstone to your dream job?

• 70-85% of all jobs come from someone you know. You HAVE to network.

• Working with third parties, coaches or professional advisors offers the benefit of more than just advice, it provides accountability.

• Brian Pott's Transcript

  [00:00:00] Richard: Welcome to Hiring Insights. The podcast that provides insight into the executive hiring process and experience, whether you are a job seeker, a people leader, a recruiter, an executive coach, or simply interested in talent, there is something here for you on the Hiring Insights. Today's episode is presented by Top Talent Advocates, where we advocate for executive and legal talent.

  You can learn more about Top Talent Advocates, listen to other episodes, and hire great talent by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and clicking on podcast. Now here's your host for Hiring Insights, Mosah Fernandez Goodman.

  [00:00:45] Mosah: Hi everyone and welcome to another episode of Hiring Insights. I’m your host Mosah Fernandez Goodman and today’s episode continues to be brought to you by Top Talent Advocates.

  Today, I’m joined by Brian Potts. Brian who is a partner at the law firm of Perkins Coie, is also an inventor, writer, professor and helped found the Legal Mentor Network. Which is an online, nationwide, and actually international networking group for practicing attorneys who help mentor and guide young, meaning five years or less, attorneys across the country.

  Brian has done creative projects such as helping start a legal influencer network, he’s created and ETF and created a keyboard for lawyers.

  [00:01:35] Mosah: Brian, welcome to the show.

  [00:01:38] Brian: Thank you. Thanks for having me. It's great to be on.

  [00:01:40] Mosah: So let’s start off with a brief introduction. Maybe tell us a little bit about yourself, what you're reading, what you're watching, what teams you're cheering for, what you're following. Let us know a little bit about yourself.

  [00:01:51] Brian: Okay. Well, since you mentioned teams, I have to start there because I grew up in, outside Louisville, Kentucky, and I'm an enormous Louisville basketball fan. I'm a fish outta water. I'm in Madison now. So I'm in Big 10 country. Which is really boring basketball, but I am a lawyer, partner at Perkins Coie in Madison, Wisconsin.

  I do a lot of other stuff, including started a bunch of companies, started a legal mentor network, which I'm sure we'll talk about. And you know, what am I reading? I'm actually reading the same 15 book fantasy series as my 11 year old daughter, it's called Spell Monger. And I've been reading it for two years.

  Think Game of Thrones, but 15 books. And it's kind of a cross between, it's not as maybe, uh, adult as Game of Thrones, but it's kind of a cross between Game of Thrones and Harry Potter.

  [00:02:52] Mosah: Thank you for trusting enough to keep that on, on the recording. I appreciate that, Brian. Thank you.

  [00:02:56] Brian: Oh yeah, I mean, I'm a nerd. I can't hide it.

  [00:03:00] Mosah: Well, you're, you're a nerd, but you're also an author and you wrote a book called the Jobless Lawyer's Handbook, How to Get Hired as a Lawyer. And you've interviewed hundreds of law students and lawyers. Where's the process broken? How are we failing law students or just recent graduates in general.

  And what, what kind of needs to change in that?

  [00:03:21] Brian: That's a good question. I mean, there's a lot that's working. I don't wanna, I'm not one of these folks that's anti law school. I'm a big fan of any education. I find that, I mean, I truly believe that almost no one who goes and gets an education when they're 80 or 70 says, man, I wish I really hadn't gone to law school.

  However, I do think law schools in particular and their recruiting departments could do a lot better job educating young law students and you know, their alumni about how to get a job. The problem we see is, like you said, I've talked to hundreds of law students is, you know, they go talk to their professors who most of whom haven't actually been in the legal profession.

  And then they go talk to their law school recruiting office, which is full of people who wanna help them. But again, maybe don't have a lot of real world experience. And you know, that is the whole realm of people that these law students are relying on to tell them how to get a job.

  And there's a whole bunch of skills. That can, you know, everything from networking to just understanding sort of the progression of a legal career that can really help young lawyers and law students that they just seem clueless. And again, like you said, I've talked to hundreds of law students and young lawyers. And so I can say based on my experience, talking to all these folks, they're clueless about a lot of really important facts, that, you know, I wish I had known in law school too. And so that's really why I wrote the book was to try to give some honest, open perspective about what it's like and the things you can do. Maybe that your law school's not gonna tell you.

  [00:05:15] Mosah: That's really interesting and insightful.

  So, you know, there are tens of thousands of students in law school right now across the country. And not everyone will go on to work at a Perkins Coie in fact you've famously posted and have been seen by over a hundred thousand people now, your famous rejection letter from your current employer, not everyone's gonna go on to have those experiences that are sort of highlighted when people are fantasizing about law school, right?

  The big firm or the glamorous in-house job, which may or may not ever become reality for students in their career. What, what advice would you give to people who are contemplating going to law school, even in advance of getting in, into the quote unquote legal system?

  [00:06:00] Brian: Do it. I'm a, like I said, I'm a huge fan of law school and the education you get there.

  I mean, sure, probably doesn't need to be three years. Yes. The ABA has, and others have created a whole bunch of barriers that maybe don't need to be there. I mean, my view is they should be teaching law school and undergrad. There should be a degree. That's how most countries do it, but that I don't think that's gonna change anytime soon.

  The bottom line is law school, almost every class, unlike your undergrad education, almost every class is useful information. How does taxes work? How do corporations work? How does our government work? How are laws written? You know, these are all things that frankly, a lot more people should know, but there's always the naysayers about law school of you have to take all, you know, it's really expensive and it might not be economically worth it and blah, blah, blah.

  But they can't put you in jail for failing to pay law school loans. I used to quote that a lot when I was in law school and they can't foreclose on your brain. It's not like you default on a house, they take your house. So really when you think about it, there are very few people, I think, who go all the way through law school and then 20, 30 years later in their career, think they shouldn't have done that.

  [00:07:22] Mosah: I know your, your focus and your, your professional background is within law. Would you say that some of the advice contained within your book and which we'll talk about probably a little bit later in the episode is applicable to folks beyond law school students? In other words, the investment in education and the utility of one's degree needs to be managed in part by the student themselves, but also by the educational institution in helping guide them towards a practical outcome, such as a job. Is that a fair statement or any comments on that?

  [00:07:56] Brian: Yeah, I mean, that's, that's a fair statement and a good point. And I, I mean, for example, why don't law schools teach a class in how to get a job as a lawyer? Why don't law schools teach a class about how the business of law works? Seems relevant, given that all these lawyers are going out into the business of law, but instead of teaching you the business of law, they teach you corporations.

  Which is about, you know, other people's business and how corporations can get structured, etc. etc. But I think there are a lot of things that can be improved upon certainly, but again, at the end of the day, I mean, I think law schools are doing the best that they can. And it's really, like you said, it's the individual person's responsibility to, you know, go out there and find that job.

  And one of the biggest problems I see is frankly, people spend 20,000 hours of their life in classes from kindergarten through law school and they do that so they can get a job. But then when you go ask them, what are you doing to try to actually get that job?

  They're like, oh, I go to OCI or I'm, you know, looking for jobs online and sending in a few applications. And if you look at how much time they're spending, it's like a couple hours a week max. And so I think the amount of time that people spend actually trying to get a job needs to increase significantly across the board.

  Even if you're the top student in your class, the more time you spend trying to figure out what job is correct for you and networking, the better your trajectory is gonna be. It doesn't matter where you start. It's all about what can you achieve from where you started?

  [00:09:39] Mosah: When we talk to our clients, um, and we've worked with a few students actually who wanna engage our services.

  We often talk about hustle, grit, and focus. With respect to hustle, I wrote a piece on LinkedIn about my over 600 job applications for my first summer associateship. Maybe not the recommended path as to how to spend your time, but certainly focused on, on the hustle element of it. What advice would you give to a law school student or really maybe any, any graduate school student who is in pursuit of that job?

  What sort of three words jump out at you as the characteristics or qualities that need to be displayed in that search?

  [00:10:19] Brian: I mean, I like your three words. They're absolutely accurate. You have to hustle. You have to have grit and by grit, I mean, there's a title of one of the chapters in my book or a sub sub chapter called The More You Get Rejected, The Better.

  And I, 100% believe that rejection is nothing other than evidence that you're trying hard. So I'm not sure I would change your three words. I think you're right. It really comes down to how much effort, hustle and effort are pretty similar, but how much effort are you willing to put in? And how thick is your skin?

  You know this because you've been a lawyer for a while, but lawyers, all we do is get criticism from other people. That is part of the job. I'm a partner and I still send out a brief or something and five people send me red lines back saying, you know, don't do this, do that, do this, do that. That's like a daily occurrence and so many people are not used to that, cuz that's not a normal thing in most careers. But this sort of ability to take criticism or take advice from other people and then change yourself and be okay with that, that is really what being a lawyer's about and it, and it translates to the job search. You gotta be okay with people, ghosting you if you spam email them. You gotta be okay interviewing at 50 places or sending out 600 resumes and getting 599 rejections because you only need one job.

  [00:11:57] Mosah: So Brian, you spend a lot of time in your book and in some of your social media posts, your thought leadership pieces, what have you, focusing on advice for law school students. Is much of what you advise law school students on applicable to both practicing attorneys and other executives post-graduation?

  [00:12:15] Brian: Yeah. So the book is designed for basically law students and anyone who's been out for less than five years, but many, many of the chapters including How to Prepare for an Interview, How to Network Effectively, all these things that can help anyone get a job. I mean, really when I sat down to write the book, a lot of the inspiration for things to do on the job hunt came from my experience, raising money for startups.

  And when you raise money for a startup, you go and you know, I'm like, hey Mosah, you might be interested in investing in my startup. I don't say that. I say, hey I'm launching this startup, I'd really love some advice about my startup and what you think. And you're a really well accomplished investor and invest in a lot of startups, would you meet with me? And then I sit down with you and it's this dance where like, you know, I want money. I know I want money, but that's not what we talk about. We talk about the company and you give me some advice.

  And then what happens is I take that advice. I go back and I change my pitch deck or whatever. I take a few more steps in the company. And then I follow back up with you in three weeks or a month. And this dance, we call it like the people who raise money, joke that it's like dating when you're raising money from, you know, angel investors. But all of that process is incredibly applicable.

  It's the same thing when you're trying to sell yourself as a lawyer to people, you reach out, you ask for advice, not a job. You talk to people, you follow back up with them every month or two, let them know what you've been doing, how you've been progressing forward. You know, hopefully tell them thanks for the advice that's helped lead to X, Y, and Z.

  And you're staying at the top of their mind. You're showing them that you're a go-getter. And so a lot of the tools are applicable across any job type.

  [00:14:15] Mosah: Brian you've created something great, it's called The Legal Mentor Network. And I know we’ve experienced the new online platform over the course of the last several weeks, which provides incredible opportunities for both mentors and mentees to connect. I know the platform focuses on law school students and those five years out, much the same way that your book does.

  I'm hopeful that you can shed some light, not as much on the legal network, because I encourage all listeners to go and explore that network, but I'd love to know your insight into why that network is important and what it represents as far as connecting people to help share advice.

  [00:14:55] Brian: I mean, as you alluded to this, all sort of happened to me.

  I posted my rejection letter on LinkedIn at the beginning of the pandemic. It's a rejection letter from Perkins Coie from 2002, 20 years ago. Like you, I sent out hundreds of resumes, hard copies, and I got hundreds of rejection letters. I'm a weird animal so I thought I'd keep 'em for 20 years. I don't know if you still have yours?

  I don't.

  So I thought it would be funny to frame the one from Perkins Coie since I'm a partner at Perkins Coie. So I did that and then I posted it on LinkedIn with a note that says law students, if at first you don't succeed, try, try again. And 5 million people saw it and tons and tons of people started reaching out to me, asking for mentorship and advice.

  And so I just have always had this sort of personality that if somebody asked me to meet, I'm gonna do it. And so I started to do it. And over a couple months, I mean, I was booked out three months doing an hour, a day, two meetings, you know, 30-minute zooms with different people. And I started posting stories on LinkedIn about it, and all these people came out of the woodwork, practicing attorneys, including you asking, you know, hey-how do I help? And so I created this informal mentor network where over a thousand people from law students to young lawyers, I just did a couple posts on LinkedIn, reached out to me and said, oh, I'd love to be hooked up with a mentor. And then I got 250 mentors from LinkedIn and I just made a spreadsheet and started hooking people.

  And so that's what led to the creation of The Legal Mentor Network. It was essentially my informal. This happened to me and people obviously want it to, well, how do we do this going forward? Because I can't sit in my office all day looking at a spreadsheet and emailing individuals. I mean, I would love to be able to do that, but I would probably go crazy.

  So to answer your question, The Legal Mentor Network was created by the need and not the other way around. It sort of just happened naturally through LinkedIn. And now because of zoom, a law student in Texas could email you if he was interested in moving to Nebraska and say, hey-what's the legal market like there, and you hop on a zoom and it takes 30 minutes.

  And it's just a much easier way to facilitate introductions and, and talking between young lawyers and legal professionals.

  [00:17:21] Mosah: And I would respond to that student, tell them that Big 10 sports are far superior to any other particularly now, since it ranges from New Jersey to Los Angeles. That's a whole different podcast Brian

  [00:17:35] Brian: Yeah. Yeah. Your basketball improved. I will say that with the recent announcement.

  [00:17:40] Mosah: so let, let's talk a little bit more about sort of playing the number game, if you will, in pursuing a job. And I view this and we counsel our clients on taking much the same way that a financial advisor would focus someone on having a diversified portfolio.

  Sometimes you want high risk high reward. So if you're a senior executive and going for the top job, somewhere, that may not be the most likely outcome for anyone's job search, but you wanna be pursuing your goals. Similarly, you want to have some blue chip stocks taking that investment portfolio analysis, and you probably want some bonds or some cash in your portfolio.

  We analogize the same thing for someone's job search. And so one of the questions that I've been wanting to pick your brain about is sort of the odds of securing an interview or getting your name out there and maybe this is on the topic of hustle. What advice would you you give to someone in order to create the best odds of getting out there and getting that interview?

  What practical steps, regardless of whether you're a law school student or a seasoned professional, just thematically, what are those discreet steps?

  [00:18:43] Brian: So you use the sort of investment analogy and in my book, I talk about geography a lot and geography matters and law students rarely think about geography.

  So that's one, and I'll come back to that in a minute, but that overlaying with the fact that you will be most marketable three to five years after law school and that 35,000 law students graduate every year. Those are basically the competitors nationwide for legal jobs, because they're the same vintage as you.

  Like it or not, lawyers are, you know, generally fall in the realm of where did you graduate from law school and that's how you get slotted in firms and in careers. And so that's the only time in your entire life that all 35,000 people of your vintage are going to be applying for jobs is when you graduate from law school.

  So it's one of the hardest times for you to get a job. So when you put all that stuff together, what does that mean? Well, the actionable steps are pick four or five geographies and have some safety schools have safety geographies. Don't just go for New York, Chicago, LA, and DC, where 70% of all law students and young lawyers want to go get jobs. Because the name of the game is to get your resume in the top five so that you can get an interview maybe top ten.

  Right? And so if you apply, I love to use Florida as an example. Florida has 12 law schools and the highest ranked is University of Florida. If you go to Cornell and you're applying to New York and Boston, you're gonna be in a pile of resumes where Cornell doesn't look very, it doesn't stand out as much.

  If you apply to Miami, which is a pretty good place to live for a couple years. And also has a lot of big firms, you’re gonna stand out. You're probably gonna get an interview and the name of the firm on the top of your resume. Nobody cares what office you're in. Right? And so you go to Miami for two years, and then when you're in that three to five year period, that's when you go back to New York or California or Chicago and get your dream job.

  So there are some things I, I think people just need to be a lot more strategic about where am I the most marketable? You know, am I willing to live there for a couple years? And as you know, the legal market has changed dramatically, even since I've been out from you go work at a firm and there's a lot of like loyalty to the firm to now everybody's moving around all the time.

  [00:21:06] Mosah: Absolutely. So, so let's talk a little bit about how that initial job search sets you up for success. Talk a little bit about if you would Brian, the, the long term or the staying impact of one start to a career, how that ultimately in more situations than not impacts the next 10, 15, 20 years of either practicing attorney or just an executive's experience overall.

  [00:21:32] Brian: You know, my own personal career is a great example.

  So when I graduated from the law school, I tried to get a job at every Amlaw 100 firm and got formal rejection letters from every Amlaw100 firm. But in thinking back on it, I was applying to New York, DC, and maybe Chicago at the time, the only place I got a job offer at a good size firm was in Kentucky.

  So I went there, right? Now, had I stuck with New York or DC? I would've started at probably a much smaller firm, a much less recognizable firm. My firm was like 300 lawyers, or actually it was 150 to 200, I think at the time. But now it's more like three hundred. So like the fact that I started at a bigger name, bigger office firm was 100% because I went to Kentucky.

  I got that on my resume. I stayed there only a year. And then I went and got an LM and then I came to Madison, Wisconsin, and I sort of slotted in a firm a little bit bigger, but not an AMlaw 100 firm. And then, you know, in that three to five year window, I got a call from a recruit. Hey, an Amlaw100 firm in Madison, and that's what they said, is looking for someone almost exactly like you.

  And I'm like, there's only 1AMlaw100 firm in Madison at the time. Now there are two or three. And so I knew what firm it was. And I was like, well, shit, I should at least interview. So it's just an example, I mean, this same thing could be true again, if you're the top law student in your class, where you start, it will impact where you end up.

  You really need to work hard to start in a place that at least on paper, so that you're moveable and marketable, allows you to move up further in the chain. The same thing could be true for a for somebody who's been out 10 or 15 years. I mean, if you can be flexible on geography, you open up a whole different world of possibilities.

  And if you're a deputy GC in New York, but you can get a GC job in Cincinnati. Right. You go to Cincinnati for three or four years as a GC, and then now you go back to New York and you can, you know, move up the chain and it's not just geography, but that's a really good example of a way to sort of distinguish yourself kind of like a safety school.

  [00:23:50] Mosah: Brian, you're famous for your advice for law school students and for the start to a prominent legal career. I'd love to have you give some insight into job seekers, process and experience generally. Regardless of whether or not you're an attorney, can you share a little bit about what you see the value in continually networking and building relationships is and how does that help someone during their career and what opportunities can that provide?

  [00:24:18] Brian: So I used to make fun of all of the people who are more senior than me that said you need to network. And now I'm one of those people. So there have been lots of studies and if you don't believe me, Google it, that show that 70 to 85% of all jobs come from someone you know, or have met. And so if you aren't meeting a lot of people, then you are hugely limiting your opportunities. Full stop.

  Now, does that mean everyone needs to meet 50 people a week? No. But it does mean that if you're really focused on your career and you want your career to progress, you need to always have a new funnel of new people you are meeting and you are networking with it. It doesn't always have to be professional.

  It's just literally about knowing people. Lawyers are consultants, they're plumbers. If you don't know a plumber exists, you don't hire a plumber. It's the same thing even in many other fields, you really just have to know a lot of people and they need to think of you fondly. That is the best advice I can give for anyone in their career that and do nice things for other people.

  So one of the things that I like to do and I've known to do is, and, and I think I've even done it for you already is every single person I meet, when I first meet them, I think of all the other people I know. And I think is there anyone I know that could help this person? And then when I hang up, I introduce them via email. And it's a really easy thing to do.

  But then the two people think fondly of me, if they hit it off and if they don't, they're not gonna be mad at me for. And so I think, you know, network, network, network.

  [00:26:19] Mosah: Perfect. No, that's great. And you've actually developed a framework for networking that has basically five goals. Would you share those with our listeners?

  [00:26:27] Brian: Yeah. I mean, goal number one, I think is like I said, meet lots of new people and I sort of set two to three zoom meetings a week and then it doesn't have to be zoom, but it could be in person. Zoom is easy. And I have a whole chapter about how to get people to meet with you, but don't be afraid to spam them and ask for advice.

  It's absolutely okay. No one is gonna get mad at you for emailing someone or being emailed and being asked for advice. Another one is going out and having a sort of lunch or actual social event with any professional once a week. It's not that hard. Go to lunch. Go play golf, go get a drink. It really doesn't matter what it is.

  And it doesn't have to be one on one on one is the best. It could be a small group. Um, but, but try to make sure you do that once a week. Again, it's not a huge amount of time.

  [00:27:27] Mosah: Never eat lunch alone.

  [00:27:30] Brian: Right. Well, that's a good idea. So, and then do nice things. Try to do, like I just said, take an hour a week or a half hour a week, sit in your office or wherever you like to do work and think about who are the people that I've recently met or who are the people that I know. And is there anything I can do to be helpful to them? Maybe it's hey, I just saw this case that came out and it's relevant to your industry. And I forwarded to them.

  I mean, that's kind of the, sort of normal lawyer, client development stuff you do. But it could also just be like hey, I know this person just moved to a city and I know somebody else there that's a cool person and you introduce them. It really doesn't matter as long as you're doing something nice for someone else.

  And what happens is over time, people think of you fondly, and that's what you want in your career. You want people to think, hey, I know that guy or girl, he's a nice person. He's trying to help me. And they will naturally want to help you. And when there's a whole bunch of people out there in the world that are your advocates or that think of you as if you have done something to help their career or whatever it is, it comes back around.

  It just does. And that's not necessarily why you would wanna do that, but it's a nice benefit. I mean, you should do nice things for other people just because it's a nice thing to do, but it also is incredibly helpful to your career.

  [00:28:57] Mosah: That's great advice. So for some folks who might be hesitant to make that initial outreach or to in some ways, and in a positive sense, leverage their network, how should someone get over the fear of rejection for making that cold outreach or that initial point of contact?

  [00:29:14] Brian: So it's kind of like, uh, if you want to be a politician, you have to knock on doors. And my wife ran for office and I had to go out and knock on doors. And I remember the first time I did it, I was like, oh, I don't know if I wanna do this. And you're nervewracking. And then you just do it and it's nerve wracking and you feel like you're intruding and blah, blah, blah.

  But then after a while you get used to it, it's the same thing with networking. You have to be okay. You just have to get over the fact that people might ghost to you, you might run into people who don't wanna be bothered. Fine, but in your whole life, what other than your family, your career is probably at the top of the list of most important things. So if you're gonna stick your neck out, it's for that, that you should do it.

  And if you spam a hundred people, I tell people to expect a 1% response rate, because that's basically any sales person, if they get a 1% response rate, that's like industry average. So you're just selling yourself. Right? In reality, it's usually more like 10 to 15%.

  [00:30:24] Mosah: Let's talk a little bit about market value in law firms. It's certainly about. Where you went to law school and the, and the firm that you're landing at often in the market in which that that office is located, whether it be a nalp directory, those things are readily available later in one's career.

  Particularly if you're an attorney, it becomes in large part about the size of your portable book and your economic value to the firm for folks, both in the legal world and outside of it more so in business or nonprofit, when it comes to market value and compensation, how do you suggest someone go about evaluating it and negotiating their compensation when starting a new job at any level in their career?

  [00:30:06] Brian: That's a hard one. Evaluating it is easier. Talk to people. I mean, it's again, an easy way to network. If you email people that have similar jobs at different businesses, ask for advice. I mean, you literally tell 'em, hey, I'm interviewing for a position that's almost exactly like yours at a different company, would you gimme some advice I'm trying to negotiate comp? Yes, they might not respond, but if they do, you're gonna get some really good information. So I mean, research, research, research on the comp front. Now the negotiation I have found some of the best employees I have are the ones who were kind of tough negotiators when you hire them.

  And as somebody hiring people, I actually think more highly of people who stand up for themselves and their comp, as long as they do it in a respectful fashion. It's not easy. And a lot of people's personalities in particular, you know, they get nervous about confrontation, but it really shows your employer that you have the skills to be able to handle a difficult conversation.

  You know, you gotta do it. That's the bottom line. I mean, otherwise you're gonna get a job and you're gonna be unhappy with the job right away, cuz you're, you know, not fully satisfied with the salary.

  [00:32:23] Mosah: So you have a section in your book on how to make your resume more persuasive. And I know that that advice is, is in particular focused on lawyers and young lawyers. There are many different types of resume styles, formats, and ask anyone and they'll give you a million different views on how you should write any one particular segment of a resume type. Applicant tracking systems and level.

  Those things all play a role, but generally, how do you advise job seekers to make a resume more persuasive? And can you share some advice for our listeners generally focusing specifically on that ability to persuade a reader.

  [00:33:03] Brian: Yeah. So this is actually a perfect question for your audience, because what I'm gonna tell you is not just for law students.

  The number one, and honestly is probably not even just for lawyers, the number one mistake that I see people make on resumes and everyone, I mean every single resume I get does this. Under the job all it does is describe what they did at the job. The subset I researched this and wrote this memo, argued this in court, and then they don't say the most important part, which is received excellent reviews from everyone with whom I worked.

  So when I'm looking at a resume, first of all, people know what lawyers do. So if you say, you know, in-house contracting council for a company, you don't need six bullet points talking about the different contracting things you do. I mean, sure you should have one bullet. Basically my structure on prior jobs is the first bullet point should talk highly about the place you worked, because if you brag about the place you worked, you're bragging about yourself because you worked there.

  So, you know, even if you work for Google in house and everybody knows what Google is, you say in the first bullet work for the top privacy officer at Google, right? Or whatever it is that you can say about the job that makes it look. And then the second bullet is all the, here's what I did, blah, blah, blah, boring.

  And then the, you know, the third bullet is received excellent reviews from everyone with whom I worked, unless you didn’t. And then the, the last one is why you left. Anything to tell them, you know, ideally you say voluntarily left to go pursue blah, blah, blah. Right? And now when I see that job, I'm like a.I know what it is and I know why it's important b. I know what you did, c. I know that they'd liked you, which is the most important piece of information you can give a future employer is that prior employers liked working with you, and I know why you left.

  [00:35:08] Mosah: That's great insight, you know, and I look at hundreds of resumes a year and work on a decent subset of those in partnership with others, either the client or someone who I'm working with and some of the most significant advice we give to our clients on this topic is to follow the common acronym of the star methodology around resumes, which is situation, task action. And to your point, most often, those three are already obvious based on position, title and industry. Is the result? What happened? What actually came out. And so we've, we've put our own sort of brand on that by focusing on rstar, which is just simply moving the result to the front.

  And that's actually a technique we work with our clients in helping and prepare for interviews is anyone can be assigned something, anyone can start to try to make progress towards something, but it's all about the result that was achieved during that endeavor. And so combining that with your advice, I think, you know, the more persuasive you can make your resume, not only will the interview be more likely, but it'll also be better supported and easier.

  [00:36:16] Mosah: Brian, there's a misconception today and we get this all the time when a client comes to us, they want to know how quickly we can help them find their next job. And depending on where they are in their job search and how their materials are shaping up, what their level of focus is and the breadth of the potential search, the level of position, all those things factor into our guesstimate as to how long it might take for that person to secure their next.

  Quite honestly, everyone wants to find that next perfect role as quickly as possible. So can you give some insight in for our listeners into what it really takes to find and execute on the next role in one's career, if they're moving upward or moving towards greater levels of compensation and satisfaction?

  [00:36:55] Brian: So patience is one of the biggest problems I see with job seekers, especially with more senior job seekers because being unemployed is uncomfortable. Or being in a job where, you know, you want another job, it's also uncomfortable. So, you know, I think you need to be realistic. I think at the end of the day, you know, hustle, hustle, hustle obviously apply, apply, apply, but then be smart about it.

  Don't just take the first thing that comes along. Because that is almost always the worst outcome where you take a job, you switch jobs and then two months in or three months in you're miserable. Now you have to sort of stick it out for a little while. So your resume doesn't look weird, jumping around.

  So I think it's gonna be a very specific to the person, question. I talk about the funnel approach, where you sort of say, okay, I can pay my mortgage for six months. I just make that up. So maybe the first two months, I'm really gonna just focus on, you know, the ideal jobs for me, whatever those are. And then if I'm not getting anywhere in month, three and four, I'm gonna open the funnel a little bit and maybe, you know, go to some jobs that might not be my dream job, but are still pretty good or a step forward in my career.

  And then the sort of like five, six month, 4, 5, 6 month is you know, uh, oh, I need something here. And of course that's gonna be different for everybody else, but essentially starting, you know, maybe more narrow, more tailored to what you want and then opening that funnel as need arises.

  [00:38:40] Mosah: Brian, when there's a job seeker looking for their next opportunity, how can someone help differentiate themselves amongst the field as a candidate?

  [00:38:48] Brian: So I've had some interesting life experiences starting companies, and that has taught me that sometimes just having an interesting story, an interesting background, something that happened to you.

  Maybe it's you were a division one athlete, maybe it's you grew up in an interesting place, whatever it is. In my case, I have pretty good academic credentials and, uh, you know, have hustled a lot to get where I am, but a lot of people and a lot of clients came about because I invented a keyboard for lawyers, right?

  It's not logical. It's an interesting thing about me. And so that means people are more apt to want to talk to me, ask me questions about that. They're gonna remember me, you know, maybe they'll call me Mr. Keyboard, but it doesn't have to necessarily be in your field, but there are tons of studies that have shown that having an interesting story that you can tell about yourself, 60 seconds, two minutes, will be remembered way more than where you went to law school, what your academic credentials are, what your, you know, professional credentials are.

  [00:39:56] Mosah: Brian going about a job search can be a, an emotional experience. It can be a time consuming experience. Um, working with recruiters is one avenue that we often hear from clients that, that they're endeavoring to work with a recruiter. Some have come to us after working with career coaches. then we, we obviously sort of fill a different need.

  What advice would you give to those engaging in a job search or contemplating a job search as far as working with third parties or professional advisors?

  [00:40:28] Brian: I mean, if you can afford it, it's absolutely going to be worth it in my experience. And I say that as someone who currently pays a coach, in my case, it's a client development person who reached out to me and was like, I coach lawyers on how to get clients.

  And what I've found is it's not just the advice. The advice is great. And there are things I don't think about, but it's also the accountability. So when you have a meeting set up every week or every month, that meeting becomes a deadline for the things that you are working on or need to work on. And that has been really helpful to me.

  So like when I know I'm gonna meet with my coach and he told me I should do these five things, oftentimes I do those five things the week before I meet with him, because I'm afraid I don't wanna show up and have not done my homework. And so there's kind of a co-benefit of not just getting the advice, but also having someone else that can hold you accountable for the task that you need to take.

  [00:41:27] Mosah: That's tremendous. And then as far as the professional advice and areas of expertise beyond sort of that accountability, how do you go about finding the right person or the right organization to support you in that search?

  [00:41:40] Brian: Well, I'm assuming they should, you know, email you first, but if you're busy, I mean, there are a lot of them out there. The Legal Mentor Network is compiling a list that would obviously be more focused on the sort of younger lawyers, but there are tons of resources out there. LinkedIn is an amazing tool. I mean, you could literally search coach, career coach on LinkedIn and find a lot of them or ask around, ask other people.

  You'd be surprised at how many people actually use those services. They often don't talk about it until you ask them about it, but I don't know of a sort of repository or, or easy place to go find all the coaches out there in rankings. Maybe there is one, but it's absolutely worth the time to invest in your own personal knowledge and personal wellbeing. It's no different than going to get an education.

  [00:42:33] Mosah: If you had to give an executive level or partner level or GC level, job seeker, a single bit of advice today, what would you give?

  [00:42:44] Brian: Keep at it. I mean, work hard. That's really all it is. Give yourself as many opportunities as you possibly can. You can always say no to a job. So you just gotta keep at it. Keep throwing stuff at the wall until something sticks.

  [00:43:02] Mosah: So Brian, if some of our listeners wanna get ahold of you or prospective clients says, wow, I really wanted to talk to Brian. How can they best get ahold of you?

  [00:43:09] Brian: Emailing me at Perkins is the best. My Perkins account as you can imagine, law firm's love to make our emails easily available. So you can just Google Brian Potts or it's bpotts@perkinscoie.com

  And as I said, I always take a meeting. That's one of my things. So anybody out there you want more advice? You just want to talk to me about how amazing Louisville basketball is, if you email me, I will meet with you.

  [00:43:40] Mosah: Brian on the episode, we always give a contribution in honor of the guest’s participation. We've selected three national nonprofits that we support on the show. We think that limiting it to three allows us to make a more significant impact and focused dollar contribution. So we've selected the American Cancer Society, Feed America, and the ASPCA, any preference among those three, where we make the contribution honor of this episode?

  [00:44:06] Brian: They're all great organizations, but I'll go with feed America. It's hard not to wanna feed America.

  [00:44:12] Mosah: Great. Thanks so much, Brian. And thanks again for being on the show. We know our listeners will benefit from your insights and wisdom.

  Thanks so much.

  [00:44:19] Brian: Yeah, thank you it's been great.

  [00:44:21] Richard: Thank you for joining us on Hiring Insights. Remember, you can learn more about Top Talent Advocates and listen to other episodes by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and click on the Podcast link.

  You can also email us at tta@toptalentadvocates.com

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Ricardo Watson | Managing Your Career: Pursuing and Capitalizing On Opportunities

Ricardo Watson, Chief Risk Officer at JP Morgan Chase & Co, joins us to share his insights on career management and his personal rise through corporate America by intentionally pursuing and capitalizing on opportunities.

• Managing your career with intent.

• When opportunities are presented to you, adopt an open-minded attitude. Where could this take you beyond one to two years down the road?

• What are executives searching for when building their teams? What are the qualities that can’t be quantified?

• You have to be intentional and focused when pursuing a career. Start with a clear understanding of your list of must have and have-nots.

• Network, resume, interview skills, research; are all of your job search tools on point? You have to “be ready so you don’t have to get ready”.

• One of the most overlooked parts of the interview process are the questions you will ask at the end. Utilize this time to assess the culture and dynamics of the leadership and organization.

• Don’t be a “spot” networker. Constantly put yourself out there and build relationships.

• The importance of having a well-rounded lifestyle as an executive. What are your passions outside of the office?

• Global experience in corporate America.

• RICARDO WATSON TRANSCRIPT

  [00:00:00] Richard: Welcome to Hiring Insights. The podcast that provides insight into the executive hiring process and experience, whether you are a job seeker, a people leader, a recruiter, an executive coach, or simply interested in talent, there is something here for you on the Hiring Insights. Today's episode is presented by Top Talent Advocates, where we advocate for executive and legal talent.

  You can learn more about Top Talent Advocates, listen to other episodes, and hire great talent by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and clicking on podcast. Now here's your host for Hiring Insights, Mosah Fernandez Goodman.

  [00:00:44] Mosah: Hi everyone. Welcome to another episode of Hiring Insights. I’m your host, Mosah Fernandez Goodman. Today I’m joined by Ricardo Watson. Ricardo who serves as the Chief Risk Officer at JP Morgan Chase, has an incredibly impressive and varied background stemming from private equity, to banking, to global operations. Ricardo who is a graduate of Wesleyan University and has studied at the Wharton School of Business and London School of Economics is not only an incredibly impressive practitioner in the financial services space, but also provides really practical and tangible insights and advice into how to manage your career and how to pursue opportunities both domestically and internationally.

  [00:01:35]: Mosah: Hi Ricardo, welcome to the show. Thanks so much for joining us today. For those folks who are listening who might not already know you or haven't checked out your LinkedIn profile in advance, would you be willing to share just a little bit about your background?

  [00:01:49] Ricardo: Of course, Mosah. Thank you for having me.

  So again, Ricardo Watson. I'm currently a Managing Director and Chief Risk Officer, JP Morgan Chase, and I am the Chief Risk Officer for our dealer commercial services business within Chase Auto. I've been at JP Morgan now a little over six years..

  I started my career in New York, in the private equity business, as an investor relations analyst. After doing that for a little over three years, I moved to Zurich, Switzerland through a Six Sigma Lean Sigma project management role. But ultimately, I was responsible for fund manager selection in our managed funded business.

  After three years of being in Switzerland, which is a really, really immersive experience, I got to travel all over Europe, became a really good snowboarder along the way. But after those three years for personal reasons I moved to London where I became the Chief of Staff to the CEO of the private bank in the UK.

  That actually ended up being an interesting experience, which we could talk about later if you want. But after doing that for less than a year, I moved into the investment bank where I was the Deputy Head of Strategy for fixed income anemia.

  And then after that I took a role in emerging markets which took me to all over Latin America. Spent a lot of time in Mexico City, South Sahara in Africa, Eastern Europe, traveled quite a bit in my career, but ultimately after that role I got an opportunity to move to JP Morgan.

  Also, I had my first kid and I wanted to come back to New York. So I joined JP Morgan Chase and my first role there before my current role was supporting the Chief Risk Officer for the company as a head of firm wide governance and strategy, which the role I did for a couple of years before eventually moving into this role.

  [00:03:40] Mosah: So I was wondering if you might be able to tell us a little bit about your background, kind of what got you to where you are today, and if you could give us a glimpse into your leadership style.

  [00:03:49] Ricardo: First thing, a lot of hard work and some sleepless nights. That aside, I mean, my background is fairly diverse. I'm at JP Morgan, I'm a Managing Director there but my background ranges a bit across the financial service of the spectrum. But since I graduated from Wesleyan I've always been in banking, always been a space where I just felt most comfortable.

  But I've gone from private equity when I first came out of school to asset management, to private banking, to investment banking, and now I'm in consumer banking at JP Morgan.

  [00:04:21] Mosah: Can you tell us a little bit about what your role is currently?

  [00:04:24] Ricardo: So I'm the Chief Risk Officer for our dealer commercial services.

  So imagine every play that you're driving down and you see a dealership, that physical building of cert needs several types of different financing. It's the physical vehicles on the lot. We finance that for the actual dealership. The building itself though, the real estate, we finance that.

  And then we also do buy sell activity. So call that acquisition financing. And I'm basically responsible for that, whether it's risk management, operational oversight, strategic risk. The team that I manage is roughly a hundred people spread across Chicago, Dallas, Columbus, Ohio, Tampa, and we have a team in India, which I'll be heading out to in November for the first time.

  But the role outside of kind of the core risk management, which is like approving and reviewing deals, we can double click into that as you want Mosah around like financial statement analysis, but it's also an advisory component. I'm heavily engaged with our CEO and our head of our business and our CFO around strategic risk, especially in a current environment where I think most folks know there are not a lot of cars out there to be purchased.

  So inventory is pretty bleak. So I've spent a lot of time right now just thinking about our strategy and where we see the market going the next two to three years but the role of the Chief Risk Officer spans a lot of different hats to say the least.

  [00:05:51] Mosah: That's great. And so you mentioned the size of your team and a little bit about the geographic spread. I'm sure there are a lot of sort of assets at risk, but can you tell us a little bit more about your supervisory experience and sort of what that means for you as you manage this diverse set of people and geographies?

  [00:06:10] Ricardo: The supervisory component Mosah, it spans the leadership paradigm of leading a big organization, but also being kind of a coach to the team because, you know you don't want to give all the answers, right?

  But then also there are some decisions that you cannot leave to certain parts of the organization, because even yesterday I was talking to our CEO about a deal and you know, his message, Ricardo we're not going to do things that don’t make any sense. And so a part of my supervisory spectrum is coaching and developing people to be able to take on this responsibility and also work without me, but also being a backstop of sort to say, I am the CRO for this business.

  Ultimately, I am accountable for the risk across the entire portfolio. While I'm not responsible for managing every element of it, it all rolls up to me. So think about the regulators I have to answer to. So that becomes a part of my responsibility. We have continuous engagement with those guys, but yeah, but I think that kind of sums the gambit.

  [00:07:12] Mosah: Can you give us a little bit more insight into how you've managed your career? You've worked for a number of different institutions. Maybe even start off with, you know, your high school education or your studies at Wesleyan, and then walk us through sort of how you've managed your career, because it's been interesting and varied.

  [00:07:30] Ricardo: One word that comes to mind is intentional. But also hyphenated open-minded. So, and I'll try to weave that together to see why those two words mean something. A- if you think about my opening, I've always been in banking, so thinking back to my high school days I went to Cardinal Hayes High School. I grew up in the South Bronx and I was very fortunate to be in a program called Student Sponsor Partnership, which basically partners at risk junior high school kids, which I was at the time, right?

  Was failing miserably in junior high school. With mentors who at this, you know, just given where the excess normally is in society were largely in banks. My mentor was at Morgan Stanley, so, you know, he sent me, paid for me to go to high school. It was an all-boys Catholic school. And for those four years with him at Morgan Stanley, he eventually got married, his wife was at City Group.

  They kind of like introduced me into banking and financial services. So that's where my yearning for that came stepping to Wesleyan. That was just a great breeding ground. I went on to major in economics, which continued to just expand my purview of what banking and how the economy works together. Cause I think most people should have a grasp on given whether it's your credit card, your home mortgage, all things that, just knowing how the economy works is a good thing for anybody.

  There's a space where I spend 13 years, five or six different roles and the journey, you know, sometimes, uh, which I hope to I help folks listening to this. The journey is not kind of up into the right, which most people tend to think it is, right?

  There's going to be zigs and zags even steps back. And, you know, across my 13 years, whether it was where I started my career in private equity in New York and then I ultimately moved to Switzerland, that story sounds really great. But lo and behold I actually didn't want to go to Switzerland. I grew up in New York, Mosah as you know, and being a kid from the Bronx.

  When the opportunity came to go to Switzerland, I was like, ah. And, you know, I remember a conversation with my director who was, you know, really, really supportive of me. He said, you have to go. They can do more for you than what I can do for you. And thinking back on this, you know, I was a 24, 25 years old at the time and one of his best performers in his team.

  So, you know, having good people and then also being open-minded to things helped out. And again, so I went to Switzerland for three years, which is supposed to be, actually supposed to be a one-year assignment. And the people who joke when they say, when they tell you one is always going to be two or three, that was my first taste of doing something different that wasn't in my core type of like investment banking.

  Kind of think about private equity going into the private bank or asset management in Switzerland was something I never had on the radar and I had never knew really what it was. So I was intentional that I wanted to continue to grow and put tools in my tool chest. Open-minded about the experience after somebody nudged me to go.

  And honestly Mosah, like that created a space where I said, wait a second, if I could take these things that I know and put together to be good at a job. And again, at that point I was doing it, by the way, with fund manager selection, which I had no experience in. Zero. And they put me in charge of that thing.

  Then the successive roles after that kind of play a similar theme about taking a skillset of learning open mindedness about the role. Like even my current role, I got to tell you, uh, when they first came to me, I was like, yeah, I don't think I want to do that. And even the role before that. So there's always been a constant, you know, pull and take.

  But big open mind opportunities has that helped me a lot.

  [00:11:14] Mosah: That’s tremendous. So for those folks out there looking to grow, obviously being open-minded, having a healthy degree of curiosity, what advice would you give to those folks who are looking to pursue new opportunities in preparation for interviews, let's say for those types of opportunities. Assume they come with the requisite curiosity and skill set.

  Someone who's chasing that, that next opportunity what's your general advice or guidance for them, whether it be in banking or just other senior leadership roles?

  [00:11:48] Ricardo: The first thing, because I know this is a struggle, right? Cause there's a wealth of opportunities out there. You can have a broad skill set so you kind of figure out what works.

  Depending on where you are, my advice will differ. So I'll give you kind of if you're at a firm trying to stay within that firm and navigate that ladder, or organization. I think it's always important there to be very staunch in what you want to do and what you don't want to do. The reason why that's important is because there's tons of opportunities at companies. JP Morgan is a massive institution, right?

  But I've just come to the realization that as you get more senior in your career, people want you to be more intentional about what's next. And I'll give you an example of that. So in my current role, I managed a team of a hundred people. My last role, I managed 20 people. Before I got this role, I had three things that really mattered to me.

  I wanted to manage that scale, i.e. the hundred people. I wanted a lot of autonomy. In my prior roles in my career, like I was either supporting a senior guy or had a small book of work that was mine, but there was always somebody over me that guided me so it didn't create my space for me to practice my craft if, if you have it.

  And the third thing I really wanted was credit approval authority. I wanted to approve deals and like own the risk that we put on the balance sheet. As roles came my way at the bank, I used those three criteria as my assessment. And what I realized at JP Morgan, at least, and most people I spoke to, they appreciated that deliberate, intentional, you knew what you wanted to do.

  And if it didn't have those three things, I was like, all right, I'll listen, but I'm not really interested. And maybe if it had two or three, you know Mosah, that could kind of, but I think that's important to know now because companies want to know what you want to do. And you know, as you get more senior in your career, you know, it is a pyramid and the roles are few and far between.

  But then I think, you know, if you're going to, let's say, leave an institution, my advice then does change because whether for whatever reason, you've come to the point in your career where you want to move on to another company, I think then that the rule of having three things that really matter to you kind of goes out the window because, you know, the first thing about going to a company is learning the culture.

  Right? And I think you want to be able to come there to learn how they do things. So any role that gives you a wide purview, and it may not tie to your skillset, one for one. You know, when I came to JP, I came into risk management. I had no background in risk management, but it was a very wide role supporting the Chief Risk Officer for the entire company.

  So, so again, I think that advice is a spectrum depending on what you want to do with your career.

  [00:14:49] Mosah: Ricardo, I want to talk a little bit about the financial sector in specific, and really, I'm hoping you can share some insight into what executives are looking for when they're building their teams, right? You have a hundred folks that are on your teams, some of which you probably inherited, some of which you've likely hired, and some of which you're probably hoping to grow into new leaders themselves.

  So I'm hoping you can help us peek behind the curtain of, of hiring and growing talent. You know, let's just assume for a moment that a candidate has the requisite qualifications. What, what do you think executives, such as yourself are really searching for when they're, when they're building their teams?

  What are those qualities or skills beyond the right school and the right grades and the right job experiences? What are those, those prereqs that you can't exactly quantify?

  [00:15:42] Ricardo: It's an interesting perspective that I've spent a considerate amount of time with my leadership team on. And one of the things that I like to anchor to is, in any candidate, whether it's the most junior role or the most senior role on my team, does this person have the ability to take the role beyond what we think it can go?

  And I sit with my management team asking that question. Because I think it's so important that executives and people more senior than me at these companies are looking for people who have unconstrained potential and who say, I know what the role is meant to do, but I'm going to take into something bigger.

  And in every role in my career, I've done that. And like, you know, one of the biggest compliments I ever got was from the Chief Risk Officer for the investment bank at JP Morgan. And he was saying that Ricardo just makes things better. And the thing that struck me about that it aligned to how I assess talent, right?

  Are these, are you coming to a company to make it better? Not coming in and I'm saying, not saying do you nine to five, because that's like a given table stakes, but that's what executives want to know. Am I going to like empower you to go do your proverbial thing as we say, but do you have it in you? Do you believe in yourself to do that?

  Because there are some tough moments in your career where, you know, like I said earlier, it's not just up into the right, like a straight shoot up. There's some down days and some days are tough and you have to be resilient and believe in yourself enough to know, I'm going to make a change. Uh, so that, that's one of the biggest qualifications that's not written on a job description, right?

  That but it is not discussed as a question to you in an interview, but people are probing, looking at your mannerisms, your words, your conviction to say, all right, this person knows it. And I just believe in them. Uh, because, you know at my level or at most senior levels at companies, no one's here telling you what to go do.

  You come in, whether your 60/90-day assessment, you go do your thing, the gloves are off, and that's it. And I think, you know, with that autonomy is the expectation that you're going to go change it.

  [00:18:07] Mosah: That's incredible perspective. So how does a candidate demonstrate that or convey that to you over the course of either soliciting an opportunity from an employer or when they're sitting down across the literal or proverbial interview table to convey to you that that's what they want to do. Or that if you gave them a shot, that's what they could do?

  [00:18:32] Ricardo: You convey it without using the words. The way you do this and get it right, in my opinion is a. you prepare, there's no more air in the room. And if you get that level of intensity, that level of focusness, and you can display that, you know, and it's not about, and like having examples of what I did in my past is helpful.

  Say, no, no, I'm a change agent. Right? But you have to come into the room with a force that no, no, this is my job and I am the person here full up. So I would love to tell you that there's like a magic more than that. You know, Mosah, but take any sports analogy. You know, I'm a big sports person. You just kind of know when Steph Curry's in the moment, he's the guy.

  And you can't explain how you know it, but you know it. If you consider your career a craft that you're perfecting when you get in that room, the work that you did. And you know, I like to tell people, like, consider that interview, that moment of showing that you could do this. That's your game winning shot.

  However, unfortunately, like Kobe or Steph, you don't have 10,000 shots in the gym to practice this, right? You got that one moment. And whether, you know, I think one of the things I was talking to you before, this is about why I like this session and this conversation. Consider, this is one shot in the gym helping you right now to get you closer to that to be ready for that game winning moment.

  [00:20:04] Mosah: So, Ricardo, a lot of the folks listening to this show are looking for insights into how to be hired by someone like you. They want to know what someone like you is looking for, they want to understand how to approach someone like you. They want to be prepared for interviews. And so I'm, I'm hoping that you can share with us at the outset of this topic, how you've specifically pursued different opportunities throughout your career.

  Sometimes you get tapped on the shoulder, but my guess is that you have a couple of stories to share about how you took that intentionality and that focus and applied it to pursuing a new role. So I'm hoping you can share some of that with our, our listeners and, and give them some insight into what things they should consider doing.

  [00:20:50] Ricardo: Yeah, that's fair. So I'll go in reverse order. I'll answer kind of, I'll give you a story about like one of the more trying times where I had a career change and then come back to advice on what to be doing. Cause I think that I mentioned throughout this career thing is not a straight and up into the right type thing.

  It's not you know, a continued progression. When I moved from Switzerland, to the UK to London, I went to work in the private bank. And, you know, it was the first time in my career where the role was just not a good fit for me. Actually, less about the role was the manager. I had a very challenging manager at the time, and you know, I remember him telling me, Ricardo, you work too hard.

  And that was a hard thing for me to digest. And also throughout the process of being there my bonus got cut in half, uh, twice. The first time I was like, okay, cool. It’s not the worst thing on Earth. Right? But the second time I remember, you know, after I got that and I told this guy, I'm not sure what message you guys are trying to send, but please let the folks know in HR the message has been received.

  Even throughout that process, I had to rely on my mentors. Uh, and I've been very fortunate to have good mentors, and I'll come back to my advice on mentorship, uh, in a second. But, so in that moment, this role was going nowhere, right? And after we got over that like bonus conversation, my manager and I agreed that it was best that I move on to a new role.

  He was very respectful. The fact that I had been at the company at this point 9 years from New York and Switzerland, and most people in the company knew me in some shape or form, right? They probably seem to find you a role that's more fitting to what you want to do in your career. And when he said that, I was like I kind of know, but I don't know.

  So I had to step back and if, you know, and decide what did I want to do next? And I decided I wanted to work into, in a strategy role. So again, like playing off of this theme of being very intentional. I was very intentional saying any job that I want to have next had to have a strategic component into it.

  I actually started looking externally for the first time and I'd probably say, yeah, I looked at Goldman for a role in the UK. That didn't work out, but then I, I kind of want to say through sheer luck this thing happened, but it was a lot of hard work that created a lucky space. If, if you get where I'm going, right Mosah?

  Where I always find the harder I work, the luckier I am in life and we can unpack that as you see fit, but a role popped up And I applied for it. It was the first time since my first job that I had applied for a job and I interviewed for it and I got the job. And I think that story's important to me because it was the worst part of my career ever where I was like, is this thing not going to work out? I have this guy, I'm in this city, this country, and I had to step back.

  I actually read Che Rivera's book, for those that don’t know Che it's a really good story about his motorcycle tour and what he went through and the chaos that was going around on his life. So I think we've all been there. That's the first thing I wanted to share folks at these career forks. And the main thing I had to put on was the folks in the fixed income was this resolve and intentional of why choose me.

  Cause I had no background in fixed income, uh, at all. That was kind of the kicker if you trace my career. But I had a lot of intensity. I had spent hours like studying the business. Cause I was very fortunate to be an internal candidate. So I had access to all the information and that worked out for me.

  [00:24:42] Mosah: When you said you were looking externally, clearly you were looking at job boards, but how were you working a network to pursue those opportunities? How, how would you go out and navigate that?

  [00:24:53] Ricardo: I think most folks have, you know, I would say wide personal networks, and I've been very fortunate. Obviously, LinkedIn is of source, but I think honestly, Mosah the stuff that you guys are doing at Top Talent Advocates, the stuff that you are doing is a space that I would go to first if this is fast forward 10 years later, right?

  Because I think there's so many unknowns about roles that are opening. You need somebody to help guide you through these processes. 10, 15 years ago, when I was in this kind of peer review, the world was less connected and the flow of information was just less if I ever got back into it, an open market search, right?

  Which I'm not you, I really see myself being at JP for several years to come. I think the first thing is you, you definitely want to have a recruitment agency, firm company, all-encompassing coach out there to help you. And I think that's, again, back where you guys are, you have a better pulse on what's out there because you’re never going to know the full gamut of roles that exist on your own.

  I think that day's kind of passed, right? So I think that that's really important for anyone starting out a search.

  [00:26:10] Mosah: So when you are looking to hire, so that's some insight into how to overcome some of the challenges and setbacks. I think it's a good point of quite honestly, vulnerability, but transparency on your end to share that, you know, not only is a career, not always hockey stick growth, but there are challenges.

  Let's talk about you as a hiring manager. When you're looking to bring someone in, JP Morgan obviously has a lot of internal recruiters. Do you always use a recruiter that's internal? Do you leverage your network? Do you engage external recruiters? You're looking to hire that proverbial a hundred and first member of your team.

  How are you going to go about getting that top talent in?

  [00:26:45] Ricardo: Yeah, I know. So we just given our scale, like we primarily use, we have an engine called it of internal recruiters. And then I would say for more senior level role, we'll then step out and use a firm to help us. Just to answer that question now, from what we're looking for, your resume is a starting point and far too often do you see grammatical errors on people resumes or the person with the four- or five-page resume.

  I've been in banking going on 20 years now, and I just got to two pages. With my current role, I think that first impression is still a myth for too many people. So I do encourage folks to get your resume to a place where you've given it to 10 different people or whoever you trust in your circle. Or whether it's bringing it to your firm Mosah, to give them insight.

  Like that's important because honestly, I look at a resume less than two minutes, right? And I can like surmise if I'm going to put this person through. And that's why I tell you my guidance says having it be so buttoned up. Cause you're not getting somebody reading it for 10 minutes. This is clear, like if that ever came up, it's a misnomer.

  It doesn't happen. The next thing is like after you get through that first rung which is probably going to be meeting with the recruiter or someone in hr before you get to the hiring manager phase. The first thing I would ask, tell you to is ask the person for feedback at the end of the conversation.

  Far too often candidates are so nervous or so humble or so honored to be in a process they forget that our job as hiring managers is to provide feedback to people. Now to the core of the question, what are we looking for? The first thing is somebody who has shown that they've prepared for the interview.

  Somebody who's thoughtful in their responses. I once asked someone a question, how many people do you think are on airplanes right now? And they're like, what do you mean? I'm like, well how many people do you think are on airplanes at this given second? And a person was like, I don't know. And obviously I knew that they didn't know the answer, because nobody knows the answer to the question.

  But the whole basis was, are they able to think through a question that has no real answer? So if you take that like, well, how do you answer that question? People are saying well okay, a plane takes off every three minutes. Okay, so I know Z so in a given hour, I got whatever, how many people on a plane?

  Probably 300 people on each plane got to account for the small planes, the big planes, this stuff like, and if you can think through that, I'm looking to say, okay, this person's actually thoughtful, they're thinking through a problem live with me, and while we, no one's going to get to the right answer. That example I say hopefully resonates with folks to say, and again, you can't prepare for that question is just how your mind has to work and why is it important, especially in banking?

  Every day is different. I would love to tell you that my job is myopic. I do one thing every single day. I don't, I take what comes to me and I'm trying to use my past experience to inform my decision. So you want people that can do that, and that's not in your degree from your X, Y, and Z university. and, and then also back to this preparedness thing, knows the company, knows the business, know what they actually do.

  Cause again, there's so much information out there on these roles. Again, that's just like a thing that people just don't do enough of it, in my opinion.

  [00:30:44] Mosah: You know I want to jump in there for a second, Ricardo, because when, when we're coaching our clients through their search process, we start with their tools, right?

  So as you described, resume, cover letter, LinkedIn, pitch deck, making sure that they're searching in the right way with the right, materials if you will, or tools. And then we're marketing them, but then we spend so much time preparing them for the interview because none, none of those first two phases of the search are worth anything unless you show up prepared for game day, which is that interview, right?

  And there, there may be a couple of 'em, right? To get more senior round, senior level positions. It's not uncommon to go 3, 4, 5 rounds into a process, particularly as you enter the C-suite. And so it's not uncommon for us to spend anywhere between 10, 15, 20 hours helping clients prepare and research in large part and then role play.

  I don't, I might start using the airplane question in my prep, but you know, we often focus on what we know. We can control those behavioral based questions, the research around the type of industry, understanding where the sector is headed, um, generally, and then, and really even doing some reconnaissance on assuming they're known at the time, the personalities that are in their room.

  Because if you know who's interviewing you, you have a lot of opportunity to build rapport in a meaningful way. It also shows preparedness. All of that is, is the type of thing that we do with someone. I'm curious to know beyond those things, which as people listen to, it may sound obvious, but it's often not, and things that people disregard too quickly.

  What are some of the things that you would suggest someone does in their preparation for those more senior level roles?

  [00:32:35] Ricardo: So, a. what you've described is back to my gym analogy, like that's the perfect, like pre workout and then the afternoon workout and then the evening workout. If you think about like, Kobe Bryan was in gym five times a day.

  I don’t know how he did that, but that's what you need to do. So like, and I think the couple of things, you know, Mosah because again, your firm does such a great job with that process that you've described, like folks are prepared. I think it's the question of the question that no one can prepare for and it's the comfort level of saying, I don't know, but I'm going to go try and think this through with you.

  Right? That's why the airplane question resonates so much. It's also like asking somebody, okay, where do you want to take this role? It's a very challenging question to answer because a, I know on the other side table you have limited insight into what we really do, but can you carry a conversation about something.

  And again, not being disingenuous in your response, right? But having a conversation. Because ultimately, you know, Mosah like you're right, everything that you're doing are powerful tools by the way, that I think not enough folks do on their own, but that next 2-3%, especially when you're more senior, right?

  That's the question is where does the person want to take this role? What do they want to do, do with this thing that I don't even imagine? So I would say, you know, as you're, as you continue to expand how you guys use this expand and almost like preparing for the unknown, you know, it's like preparing for the team that always plays zones.

  Say you know what we're playing man, and I don't care cuz that's what we got to do right now, right? Or when in Golden State goes into a zone defense and it, it, it messes up with the Celtics. Like oh we didn't prepare for that. Why didn't you prepare for that? You didn't think that that could happen? And through that, preparedness and that forensic focus on this side of the table, you say, you know what?

  This person, I can throw anything at them, I can throw a pandemic at them and they're going to be with me. Right? Cause again, when the pandemic hit and we everybody had to work from home, some people's career did really well. Some people's career did not do so well because of how they responded and what they showed.

  Like, you know, just an ability to jump in on grenades that nobody knew what ever existed in the company. But articulating that, showing that, and also, again, not being disingenuous, cuz people will tell that, you know, you, I mean you can see my face and you see my emotions that I, that I exude with this stuff.

  That I love this stuff. That's why it's important to pick your career correctly. Cuz as we discussed, banking is intense. It's going to demand a lot from you. You got to love this stuff to succeed because you have to prepare a lot for this stuff.

  [00:35:38] Mosah: So what are some red flags you think people should either avoid showing or should just never have?

  Um, what are some of those red flags you look for when you're, when you're interviewing?

  [00:35:51] Ricardo: Right. I'll be honest with you, I'm a bit outta practice with that though cuz most time the people get to me, they're like been through, they've been tortured maybe torture is a bad word, but like you said, they've been through 3, 4, 5 rounds of interviews. But I do get the occasional person that's very nervous just to meet with me. And I think being nervous is okay cuz that just means that you want it. So don't hide your nerves like that is okay. I think what's not okay is whether it's the comp question, right?

  Like there's a whole process there that that happened. So just, just let that go honestly. It's like not worth stepping in. Right? I think that question especially in banking, again, just to let that go. I would actually rather tell you guys that the question you should be asking, you should be asking about team dynamics.

  You should be asking about hey what is the culture of the team, how does the team work well together? Asking the person on the table, like, what are the areas that you're trying to improve on the team? Those questions help because what you also have to remind yourself as much as we as a bank or we or whoever is on the other side of the table trying to assess you to join, you're the talent and there's a lack of it, even this extremely hot market.

  So you should be assessing what we are trying to do here, and not to be conceded or anything like that, but you should feel free to ask the question about the culture, the dynamics, you know, what are the things that this person, the manager or executive is not happy about? Or, or where are they focusing their efforts on?

  I think those things are important to show as positives. A, it helps to give you a picture of what you're getting into, but B, it shows me as a hiring manager that you really care about where you're going to be spending 60% of your day, same thing your day doing. So if you think about 24 hours a day, you sleep six or seven, you're going to eight work, eight commute, all stuff is big part of life that you're committing to any company.

  And I want people that are in it with me, and any good manager and team wants people to be in it. And through those questions, you'll show that you're in it.

  [00:38:04] Mosah: The next question I'm going to ask you, Ricardo's, a little bit more tactical and practical, I guess. If you found yourself looking for your next job tomorrow for any number of reasons. And I'm putting you in that situation only so you know, you can really sort of personalize the guidance here. What would you do to start your search?

  How do you network, how do you build that resume and refine it to be as optimal as you want? How do you start preparing for those target companies? You find yourself looking for a job, how do you go about that tomorrow?

  [00:38:40] Ricardo: Aside from what we discussed as far as like what you guys are doing, at Top Talent, finding your top talent, like advocates that have somebody with you.

  Like that's, that's like step one. I think the day of going at it alone, like pure alone, like job posting in my mind is over. So I would definitely get a firm to work with first and foremost. And then I'll quote something that a friend of mine told me years ago, be ready so you don't have to get ready.

  So my resume is always updated. Full stop. The second thing about networking, it is tremendously important, but don't be a spot networker. Constantly network with people. Constantly put yourself out there, not just for the sake of doing it, but like it could be uncomfortable doing it. So you want to get over any jitters you have and constantly be in the proverbial mix, so to say, so that your name is fluttering around there.

  Right? Obviously Covid, you know, put a damper on a lot of that, but there's still, still other ways, whether it's through Zoom chats or whatever to meet people, other groups and definitely, you know, New York's, you know, unlike other cities really open. So, you know, I try to get out a couple of times a month with folks because you never know what's out there unless you're, you're out there.

  So I'm always, you know, doing that. And then I think that the other thing I would tell you is just like I would step back if I had to really go on a search to say and think about what mattered most. Figure out what your list of must have for your job is. And, and again, not that you have to etch them in stone, but I would know why am I leaving?

  What do I want? Whether it's more money, it's more flexibility. Is it a change out of retail banking into this or the Asia move? What is it that's, that's putting me there? Or did something else happen to me? Like the company made a change, right? Those things all factor in, but I think my intentionality would really rise at that point.

  00:40:58] Mosah: Ricardo I want to share something that I've always appreciated about you and something that I think is impressive about people with liberal arts backgrounds and people from, you know, world cities and people who have, I guess, an openness and an appetite to embrace differences and understand things from different perspectives, which is really the importance of staying well rounded.

  And you've, you've addressed and sort of talked about this as being something, whether it be someone's mindset or their curiosity, but I'd like to know a little bit more about you and, and share for the listeners who you are as a person and, and really what drives you outside of work. So if you could give us some insight into some of the things that you're passionate about outside of banking, um, even though the hours might be long in the days, uh, equally long, what are those, what are those things that drive you outside out of the office?

  [00:42:01] Ricardo: And thank you for that. Most of that, cuz I think it's important. So the, the first and foremost thing that matters to me, uh, is family. One of the big reasons why my wife and I decided to move back from London to New York was we had our first kid, RJ, Ricardo Jr. who's seven now and I come from a very strong family.

  I wanted my kids to know their family. So I have two boys, Caleb is four, turning five. And you know, that's important and my career, I'm often surprised how much time I leave the office to go take my kids to soccer or to swim or to whatever, and I get up and go. Full stop.

  And that's like one of the best things about, you know, JP Morgan Chase. No one's ever told me, dude, you can't leave. Which some people may do that. Some companies might think that's okay to say we don't. I think that's important. My health and fitness is really important to me. So, you know, I spend a lot of time on my bike cycling, working out ends up being a great stress believer.

  And then so like outside of like family, my health and my fitness, I do spend a lot of time reading. So I'll read, you know, or listen to an audio book while I'm in the gym a couple of months at least. Cause I think it's important to continue to just learn. And like sometimes I'll do a health wellness book.

  I'll do like a person development book. I very rarely do like novel type drama, dramatic, that’s my wife's category of books. But I'm also reading stuff like that. I'm actually listening to a book now about how to receive and give feedback better. And then outside of that, I do spend a lot of time giving back, you know, whether it's through mentorship.

  My calendar is like, I would say, splattered with different coaching sessions with junior people. Cause I do believe in the concept of to whom much is given, much is expected. And I've been very fortunate in my life. And also, as much as I'm giving advice, I'm actually learning from people. So to the extent that, you know, you can build that into your day, definitely do that.

  Uh, I think it’s very, it's helpful to help grow and coach that next generation. And then also, you know, I'm definitely into philanthropic giving. I am on the board of the New Jersey Performing Arts Center, and I'm also actually going through the board process now for a program student sponsor partnership, the program that actually sent me to high school.

  I've been involved, I think about, I think 10 kids to my school now, and I'm going to join their board later this year. You know, so, so if I think those things are important, and also the last thing I got to tell you, try something different. I'm a massive snowboarder, so while a part of current, like vacation, I'm on, I’ll get interrupted.

  Folks know when Ricardo is snowboarding, he's not, you can't reach him. I'm, I'm going dark, like zero dark 30. You will not find me. Don't try whatever you need, you are good. And it is appreciated because folks want to know this, this guy can unplug and, and go step away from it. So, so those are the things that, that I think help me, you know, and honestly, my all-time favorite is going to be later tonight is Friday night movie on the couch with my kids.

  [00:45:39] Mosah: So you've been playful and very open about your background and what, you know, what motivates you outside of work when you're sitting down with someone how, how would you expect them to convey what drives them outside of work? And what are those qualities? Not necessarily the activities, because it's not expected that someone be a snowboarder. It's not expected that someone have a, a passion for the arts. It's not expected that, I think it is expected that someone be a Yankee fan, but that's a different show.

  [00:46:10] Ricardo: I didn't know that anybody isn’t a Yankee fan. So if there are non-Yankee fans out there, got to stop that.

  [00:46:19] Mosah: What are the qualities that you're seeking in someone who, who you hire as far as their passions outside of work? How can someone convey that to someone like you in a way that's meaningful?

  [00:46:31] Ricardo: So what you want to try to convey to, you know, a hiring manager or somebody talking about opportunity is just this sense of there's something more to person than just this banking or job thing, career thing. And it's important because, you know, far too often, you know, somebody gets burnt out from the job or for whatever reason, you know, and that's really tough on organization, right?

  And, and the people. So in your conversations with folks, just be genuine about what you care about. And you're right, it doesn't have to be snowboarding. It does have to start with, I love the Yankees, a shameless plug. But like I think the days of being shy about what we do outside the office and like, oh my God, I can't have a life outside of this.

  My wife's a big Orange Theory person and she likes to watch, what is it? Uh, New Jersey Housewives. That's what she does, so she likes tv and she zones out to TV and she'll tell you, because my day is so intense with two kids running around, I'm just on the tv. And so, and by the way, like most senior people I talk to, whether they, whether they're watching Ted Lasso or some other TV show, that's like totally cool now, which 20 years ago, what do you mean you were watching HBO at night? I think people just looking to understand that there is more to you than this like, career. Because when you're in the office, they want stuff in the office and you, they want to know the person. Because I think with that, at least for me, I think that's a sticking point.

  Like I think there's a view of if folks can be comfortable being there, like all encompassing authentic self with me and in the office, they'll have a better experience and just want to be with us more. So do that because that's what people want actually.

  [00:48:31] Mosah: So I want to talk a little bit about banking specifically and anything that might make the banking or financial services sector different in your mind. Um, it's certainly one of the most highly regulated. JP Morgan is the largest bank in the world, and you are pretty close to the top of the institution.

  So what would you say makes banking or the financial services world different when it comes to finding a job and displaying your leadership?

  [00:49:01] Ricardo: Banking is, there's a certain intensity that's unexplainable, but there's a certain less liveliness. When I think about what we're trying to accomplish, especially in the current space where we're part of the real economy, right?

  We're really trying to help people get homes, access to credit, get a car. I feel really good about that. But what makes it different in, in the sense of like, listen, I'm, I was never one to go into law or medicine, so I can't compare like the, like what's at stake, you know what I mean? For people.

  But I would tell you that banking, you know, is very intense and that ranges from the consumer bank to the investment bank. Because what, especially at the current at JP Morgan, what we're trying to achieve is, is so grand. Right? And, and it's hard. Uh, and not just regulatory wise cuz it's just so complex.

  Right? If I, if we could do 10 podcasts on derivatives, you know, and because of that depth, you know, we have certain expertise in, in the bank and so people that are very good at, uh, vertical thinking, you know, whether it's the guy who knows oil and gas and he's the expert in the company anytime oil and gas issue, you call that guy, he, he goes talk to the VP people in the company and that's it.

  Then you have people that have lateral thinkers who say, you know what, I'm not going to be good at one thing, but I need to be good at a plethora of things. Let's take my current role where I need to understand all these different products. And so I think that intensity is what makes banking, let's say, very different, but the impact is also, I think, felt very widely.

  Again, no disrespect to any other industry or career, but that intensity is just not really achievable in kind of the average work week. Because of that, it does become even more challenging, right? We spend a lot of time trying to figure out what is the right work life balance, because there's just a lot of work and not just work, but the answers have to be so correct.

  You know, I was talking to an analyst that just started at the bank and I told her what someone told me when I started as an analyst, I go, listen, you get two shots to have your numbers be wrong the first time and the last time. And she's like, wow. I go, yes, because we can't have numbers be wrong on the page.

  And she went to UC Berkeley, and she was like wow that’s intense. But that’s banking.

  [00:51:38] Mosah: So you also you bring a, a unique experience in that you worked abroad. Not everyone who rises up in the US within corporate America has that global experience. I'm wondering if you might share with us how you think that might have helped you and how it helps people generally to have that experience abroad.

  [00:52:00] Ricardo: Yeah, so you know, my eight years abroad, which again, I'm supposed to be one year, three years in Switzerland, and then five years in London, it not only puts me in a rare category when it comes to like marketability and all the other kind of like really, really icing on the cake type stuff. Uh, so I definitely encourage it like, hands down if you have an opportunity to go abroad, just do it.

  Obviously, there's like a whole family venture. I did it when I was younger. I didn't have any kids and less things to like center me be in New York. But I, I definitely think it was one of the most profound experiences in my career, not just for the resume builder, but it gave me a diverse perspective outside of kind of the not to say this way, but the American view of like, oh New York is the center of the world. No, no, there's other countries in the world and they're really cool. And the people and the cultures are very interesting. So getting a chance to not only live, you know, in Switzerland and London, but also travel to Singapore, spend time in Asia, spend time in Latin America, work in Germany and Spain and Italy, like, just seeing those diverse cultures heightened my sense of like cultural awareness, which makes me better at my job because as I mentioned in my team, while I think probably a high percentage, probably 30, 40% are, call it like American, US American.

  There's another set of people that are not. Right? Whether they've either immigrated to the US, have a team in India and, and those different cultures, you know, when it comes to getting a job done on a team, respecting them, those cultures, the differences and noticing in a meeting for some person, whether you're from Eastern Europe and you're more boisterous.

  But if you're from South Africa and you're quieter, more reserved, but you still have good ideas, how do I lead that group to get to the best answer? So the international experience did all of that career wise. And then honestly, on a personal level, it was just a great experience to immerse myself in, in a different culture, especially given my, you know, growing up in the South Bronx.

  So I encourage it definitely from a, just a pure, like, it will make you more marketable than most people, right? But then also in that process of becoming more marketable, you're going to gain something that I've tried to describe here, but you'll know it yourself when you have it and when you're in a meeting room.

  I'll give you another example. I'm very respectful of time cut in Switzerland they would close the door when the meeting started. Literally the meeting is at four o'clock, they closed the door at four o'clock and it was just like, okay, that's an interesting way to manage a team. Obviously in the US we don't do that, but maybe we should.

  [00:54:53] Mosah: You could be on Lombardi time, 15 minutes.

  [00:54:56] Ricardo: Well, no, they, so they were, it's funny cuz they wouldn't open their meeting 15 minutes before. You had to be there on the dot, you know, so those type of things from an international experience, and I know I think folks who are, are hesitant to do it.

  And again, different parts of your career. You know, right now I'm pretty much like an East coast person. My wife and I discussed it. If something made sense, the only place that we would probably consider going to is Asia. purely because, like, not going back to Europe again, but we've had that conversation.

  So, you know, whether you're earlier in your career and you are less constrained from kids, marriage that stuff, and then, or if you're more advanced in your career, I definitely think having that conversation with your spouse is more important to say, hey, where are we in this thing? Because also I think companies are still looking for people that are mobile to, to hop around.

  And it could be a you know, a career charger, for folks depending on where you are. But it's, there's nothing, there's no downside in my mind from an international assignment.

  [00:56:02] Mosah: Ricardo, one of the things that I think listeners of our, our program often aspire to do is to join a corporate board. We've had a guest on who, uh, Bill George who sat on the board of Goldman and Exxon, Target, Novartis whole, whole host of corporate boards. You obviously have board experience now in the nonprofit world.

  I'm wondering, as you think about yourself and, and the future of your time, not only at JP Morgan, but for the balance of your career, would joining a corporate board be of interest to you? If the answer is yes, as you contemplate it, how are you thinking about what you can bring to that type of an environment?

  [00:56:46] Ricardo: You know, that's definitely, uh, a fair question. So as I, you know, think about my longer-term trajectory and if you go back to my view about just adding value and helping, right, and being able to take something and make it better, I do have aspirations and see that that's a thing where I can provide a tremendous amount of value to a corporate board.

  Obviously, you have to figure out the right space or the right sector because my experience is wide and deep in certain spaces and not so to many others. But like, so, you know, like my, my interest does lie in international stuff, of multinational corporation. I think I could help just through my international experience already.

  And then like financial services ties up easier. So whether it's a small shop, try to grow, cause I've grown businesses, what I've witnessed is the power of a corporate culture. Well, what I mean by that, you know Mosah, is it's hard to un trap to unlock people's discretionary give to you, meaning as an employee, as a manager, as a leader.

  But I think boards and what we're trying to do in my kind of nonprofit is help just to untrap and get people to do more. And obviously with board you thread that line between not being an operator, but helping that company to unlock that is just a powerful thing that excites me and keeps me alive to say that could be really, really interesting, space to and place to be a part of.

  [00:58:31] Mosah: Ricardo if people have questions or want to continue the conversation with you, what's the best way to get in touch with you.

  [00:58:38] Ricardo: So first off, I definitely welcome anyone listening that has a question or if something that I opened up you want to unpack or wasn't clear where I was going with it.

  Cause at the core I'm trying to share what I've done to help people to be better at, at whatever career journey they're on or whatever point they are. So I definitely welcome follow up. And the best way to do that would be just to, to email me. My email is ricardo.watson@me.com

  Shoot me a note and I'll definitely get back to you in a diligent fashion.

  [00:59:22] Mosah: Ricardo, thanks so much for being on the show today. Really appreciate your insights, your friendship and the wisdom that you've shared with our listeners. So, thanks so much again for joining us.

  Really appreciate it.

  [00:59:33] Ricardo: It was my pleasure. Thank you.

  [00:59:36] Richard: Thank you for joining us on Hiring Insights. Remember, you can learn more about Top Talent Advocates and listen to other episodes by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and click on the Podcast link.

  You can also email us at tta@toptalentadvocates.com

Kristi Stepp: A 360 Degree Look at Career Strategy: Executive Search, Onboarding, Retention, and Succession Planning

Kristi Stepp, Partner with Sigred Solutions, a boutique talent strategy and retained management recruiting firm, joins us to share her insights into developing a career and job search strategy, successful onboarding and retention efforts for managers, and proper organizational succession planning. Kristi has held leadership positions at General Motors, Kelly, Pepsi Cola, and Volkswagen.

• When to engage a search firm as an organization and how Sigred Solutions goes one step further to assisting with onboarding.

• Talent Acquisition: searches, internal candidates, succession planning.

• Complexities of a search: what does the organization need, finding a fit technically and culturally, evaluating candidates, the interview, and onboarding.

• A shift in the landscape of recruiting and career searches.

• Non-negotiables for a search in 2022: LinkedIn, Resume, Hustle and Grit

• The STAR method.

• Who are your super connectors and how can they help you in your career search?

• If you are looking for an executive role, most of them will not be posted on LinkedIn or other job boards, so how do you find them?  

• Non competes, how to understand them and not underestimate their restrictions.

• Training & Development has evolved but remains a necessity to employ growth and success. Understanding what your employees want and need in those areas and how investing in them has a direct correlation to employee retention.

TOP TALENT ADVOCATES REMAINS COMITTED TO PHILANTHROPIC EFFORTS. EACH GUEST IS ASKED TO SUGGEST ONE OF THREE NONPROFITS FOR OUR SUPPORT.

Focus Hope

• KRISTI STEPP TRANSCRIPT

  [00:00:00] Richard: Welcome to Hiring Insights. The podcast that provides insight into the executive hiring process and experience, whether you are a job seeker, a people leader, a recruiter, an executive coach, or simply interested in talent, there is something here for you on the Hiring Insights. Today's episode is presented by Top Talent Advocates, where we advocate for executive and legal talent.

  You can learn more about Top Talent Advocates, listen to other episodes, and hire great talent by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and clicking on podcast. Now here's your host for Hiring Insights, Mosah Fernandez Goodman.

  [00:00:44] Mosah: Welcome to another episode of Hiring Insights. I'm joined today by Kristi Stepp, who's a partner with Sigred Solutions, a management recruiting and leadership advisory firm. Kristi has over 25 years of human resource experience in the automotive, healthcare, food and beverage, and workforce solutions industries.

  She has broad international and multicultural experience. Prior to Sigred Solutions, Kristi served in strategic human resource roles at several leading global organizations, including General Motors, Kelly services, Pepsi-Cola and Volkswagen. Most recently, Kristi served as the global head of talent development at General Motors.

  While at General Motors, Kristi had enterprise-wide development responsibility for over 65,000 employees, including 12,000 people leaders and 20,000 employees outside of North America. While at Kelly services, Kristi was based in Singapore and led all aspects of HR for the Asia Pacific region.

  Welcome to the show Kristi thanks so much for joining us today. Would you tell us a little bit about yourself, maybe a little bit about your background professionally, and then we'll talk a little bit about who you work for and what you're doing.

  [00:02:02] Kristi: Absolutely. So I am a partner in Sigred Solutions. We are a leadership advisory and search firm.

  Our mission is to really work with employers, to help them find amazing talent and support that talent through the employee life cycle. So as employees come in, we want to set them up for success. And a lot of times as we're working with our clients, we find other ways to be able to support them.

  What's great about the work that we do is it allows me to leverage my 25 years of HR experience in multinational companies. So I've always worked in human resources, primarily in operations roles, and often have the opportunity to do some of my dream work, which is employee engagement, leadership development, diversity, wide-scale organizational change. So all of those things in my career.

  At one point I worked as the global head of talent development at General Motors. I lived in Singapore for three years and was responsible for the Asia Pacific region for Kelly services. And I also was the director of diversity at Volkswagen North America.

  Those are the jobs that I loved. Even as I went into operational roles, I have the opportunity to take that org effectiveness work into operations, and I'm really, really proud of the experiences that I've had. But most of all, from the people that I've met over the years, who helped me to grow and to get to this point where I can take all of those experiences and leverage them and accompany that.

  [00:03:52] Mosah: That’s incredible. Thank you. You do have a really broad set of experiences under your proverbial belt. And one of the ones that I want to just talk about for a second before we get into some more of the meat for today's show is a little bit more perspective about your international experience and your domestic.

  As listeners spend the next chunk of time engaging in listening to today's episode, I want to make sure that they understand the experiences that you're bringing fully. So would you shed a little bit more light on, on some of the international experience that you've had? Because I think that's really important for our listeners to understand.

  [00:04:30] Kristi: I always wanted it to live and work internationally. I have worked in organizations, however, that did not have HR as a core work. So the people who tended to get those assignments were people who did the core work, engineering, sales, other types of areas. But I always found a way to get some international experience even as I was sitting in the United States.

  So I would volunteer. When I worked at Volkswagen, I had an opportunity to do quite a bit of travel in Germany, which was, was wonderful. I worked for a company that was headquartered in Japan, worked on quite a few international projects that way, too. And that was a good way to, I would say, dip my toe into international experience.

  I will tell you however, living in another country, and having that experience both personally and professionally is life-changing because when you are out of the adventure of visiting and the delight of that type of work, and you're actually living you learn that you have to adjust yourself because you can't change a culture.

  So just as we know individually, it takes quite a bit of work to change an organization. If you go into a country and you start to rub up against things that you're not used to, you have to adjust yourself. And I think what it does is it browns out any sharp edges. It helps you to have an appreciation for others empathy.

  And I would say even from a professional standpoint to think differently about how work is done. I'll give you an example. I worked on a huge project when I was based in the United States from an organ effectiveness standpoint and rolled it out globally. Everyone said it was successful and when I went to live in Asia and started to visit some of the countries, they had not started to use some of the things that we talked about.

  And I asked why, and they said, well, legally it doesn't work here or it doesn't fit culturally. And after learning why these things were not working in the countries, I had to go back and ask for modifications for something that I had already gotten credit for rolling out fully and successfully.

  Those are the types of experiences that if I sat in a global role, only in the United States without digging deeper and understanding, I might not have ever known that some of those things were not successful, so I have grown significantly.

  [00:07:24] Mosah: That's great. Thanks for sharing that. I think that's not only, important for our listeners to understand about your background, but also some leadership lessons in that.

  So thank you for sharing. So I want to talk to you a little bit about search firms. I know that's not all that Sigred does. Certainly not all that you have done professionally. But let's start with, the most basic of questions is when should an organization hire a search firm? When does it make sense to engage a firm like.

  [00:07:53] Kristi: I would say organizations engage our firms for a number of reasons. The first really is speed. Sometimes there is a need to find someone and by giving that work to us, they know that we're going to take it from beginning to end and move it very, very quickly, more quickly than they might be able to do inside.

  Sometimes we work with clients and their HR department is stretched or they don't have that maturity yet. They might be growing or they might really be great at hiring hourly employees, perhaps employees who are individual contributors, but when it comes to management, they might need some extra support there.

  So they give that to us. The third situation is really where sometimes there is no HR and there is a need to really be able to find somebody exceptional and bring them in. So what we do and what a lot of search firms do, is to take the time to do the search, to find out the key competencies for success, to understand the culture fit for that company.

  And one of the things that we do in addition is to help with the first 90 to 120 days of a new employee's life and supporting them with some culture. We know what makes people fail so we just flip that around and we support them in being successful.

  [00:09:28] Mosah: I think that's tremendous. And I don't know if, if Sigred is the only firm that does that in the country, but I think that's definitely a distinguishing characteristic.

  So kudos to you for, for taking that strengths-based approach to onboarding talent. So, what are some other approaches that you find organizations taking when thinking about talent acquisition, what else works? Obviously, you'd love for all clients to pick up the phone and call, but what are some other things that organizations do to acquire talent?

  Is it about growing talent internally? Is it about having robust internal recruiting efforts? What are some other things that you find works well for organizations?

  [00:10:10] Kristi: When we're working with organizations and we have a great longer-term relationship a lot of times we like to start from within. It's hard to go out and advertise and look for new employees and give them a promise that people inside are not experiencing.

  So understanding, you know, what are employees experiencing right now? What is the culture? A lot of organizations, especially now, talk a lot about their aspirational goals, their aspirational culture. And when you were looking outside to bring someone in and you're sharing that it can fill inauthentic to people inside the company.

  So we work with organizations to help them understand how employees are feeling. We'll use an engagement survey. Sometimes companies don't have time for a full engagement survey. We'll do a poll survey, but we want to get a feeling for where employees are. There's a caution there though, because if you ask people their opinions and you don't give them any feedback, you would have been better off not asking at all.

  So what we do is build a full communication plan in to say, you shared information with us, here's what we learned, here's what we're going to do from a strategic standpoint, from a corporate standpoint and here's what we're going to ask you to do. Because together we can become a better organization.

  When you do that work and then concurrently start to look externally. It makes it better. So a lot of companies will make a promise and not be able to line that up with reality. We work behind the scenes to help organizations do that. And that is very, very important. Another piece that I think is very important is succession planning.

  So if you know where your organization is going, and you know that you have individuals inside the organization who can fill other roles, thinking about that proactively is important. Some organizations have one person and they're lined up for every role in the organization when it comes to succession.

  So if you ask there's three or four people, but you've got 10 roles that you're trying to fill.

  [00:12:32] Mosah: So I'm going to ask you a question that might be a little more tactical. But if you could shed some light and help us sort of peek behind the curtain, if you might be able to walk us through the discrete steps, a recruiter or a headhunting firm, or a search firm, choose your term of art, whatever the discrete steps, those types of organizations go through from working with a hiring manager, through the onboarding of a candidate, just those big milestones of a search, because as a candidate and the people that I'm often working with.

  There's not an understanding or an appreciation for that all too often. And I think the complexities of a searcher are often lost on those who are being searched for.

  [00:13:15] Kristi: To launch a great search we really have to understand what the organization needs. We will start with the job description and often we'll have a larger conversation about the org chart, the organization.

  How does this role fit? Who does it report to? Was it a replacement or is it new and what is the goal for this role in the future? Sometimes a job description has been around a really long time. It does not reflect what is needed. And if an organization is growing, you need to understand what does the person need to come in the door with?

  And what will be needed of them as this role grows. We will take that information and develop competencies. So what are the key factors that this individual needs to be successful? A lot of times people think of technical type descriptors. We're focused more on the role and success. Does this person need to be able to be comfortable working in the gray.

  Does this individual need to have a lot of detail in their work? Are they leading a very large team? What are the success factors that are in there? And that's how we build the competencies. From there we start to look for candidates and as we look, we are considering not just the technical, but also those pieces that give us an idea of whether this individual would fit in the organization.

  So a lot of times we'll talk to someone who could be a great fit technically, but probably would not fit into the culture. So sometimes it's a very fast paced culture and we see someone who is very structured. And we know that that may not be a good fit and we give them that feedback and we continue to move forward.

  All of that, we work behind the scenes to do, and at some point, we develop a slate of candidates. And we have those and we present them to our clients. That probably is probably five to eight people. And we will have information on all of those competencies that we share with them to say, here's who you have.

  Often here are no, there's not a perfect person for a role. So we talk about here's the individual, and here are the strengths that are going to come in the door with, and here are the developmental areas, so they can make the best decision. From there we often train our clients for interviewing because there are legalities or ways of looking at candidates.

  And we like to use behavioral interviewing. So we are looking for past evidence of what someone has done versus theoretically, what they might do. It's based on the premise that past performance predicts future performance. After we get to that point, we may use psychometrics or other types of assessments to look for fit, and we make sure that those have been looked for non-discrimination.

  So we don't just use any tools. These are tools that have been tested to make sure that anyone who takes the test would not be impacted, but we only use that as a portion of what we've looked at. And then from there we will extend an offer.

  [00:16:43] Mosah: And then you help them onboard.

  [00:16:44] Kristi: Yes, we absolutely do. And I will say that that's something that most companies that we compete with do not do.

  So we say, we know there's a lot of research out there that talks about failure rates and what causes leaders to fail. And a lot of time it is really trying to take what made them successful in the past and having blind spots and not being able to consider those things that they move into their new role.

  The learning curve is high. They need to have early wins. They need to be clear on what success looks like. So we work first with the client to say, what does success look like in that period of time? And then we work with the client and coach them through that so that they can make sure that they get to what we call the breakeven point as quickly as possible in their roles.

  There's been a lot of research over the years about recruiting and that research says that most people hate interviewing. They really don't enjoy the interview process, but they do it for their friends. So I need to hire, so, okay I'll jump on the interview process with you, but people find it very stressful and it is not something that they typically enjoy yet it's one of the most important things that you can do.

  So one of the things we say is that we take the pain out of that search process by taking the things that are typically stressful out, we do it all behind the curtain. And then when we present people have a nice slate of candidates that they can look at hiring.

  [00:18:29] Mosah: So Kristi, I'd like to spend a little bit of time sharing some of your insights and experience for candidates as they look at searching for their next role. Not everyone has the fortune of being on the radar screen of big search firms. Not everyone has had the career path that they necessarily initially set out to have.

  Not everyone is happy in their current job for any number of reasons, supervisory, conflict, lack of market-based compensation. There are a number of factors that drive people to look. What advice would you give to a candidate to make it easy to be recruited or to get noticed by those seeking to hire.

  [00:19:10] Kristi: For so many people, especially people who have been in their roles for a while, the landscape of recruiting has shifted significantly. I'll talk to people who have been in a company for a while, and now they're looking and they're wondering, why do I need a LinkedIn profile?

  I take all this time to apply for a job and then to hear nothing. So, what I share with people is that you need to think about your network, the most important leverage you have is your network and your friends and colleagues who are super connectors. So if you apply to a job on LinkedIn and you see it and you think it's amazing, then you need to think about who, you know, at that company.

  And if you don't know anyone who knows someone and work on getting your resume into someone's hands. Most times, even when we're doing very high-level searches, there's always a resume or two that comes through that we consider because it was a friend of a friend. Don't just rely on artificial intelligence to think that that's going to help you get a role, especially the higher you are in an organization.

  So if you're looking at a C-suite role, you're probably going to work with some type of recruiter or go through a process that may not bring you to the top, even though you may be one of the best candidates for the role. So at a minimum you've got to have a LinkedIn picture. It should not have your cat or your kids or your whole family. It should look professional.

  You should have at least some highlights of what you've done over your career. And in a little bit that gives some indication that you are not just focused on your job. So, what have you done that may be volunteering or something else? Doesn't have to be extra complex, but interesting enough.

  So I would start there, but everything is not on one platform. And letting people know that you are looking helps a lot. So you may have to think about when I say super connectors, I'm thinking about the friend that you have, or the colleague that you have that always know someone. You need, I need to get my hair cut, oh, I've got three barbers. And you know, whoever that individual is, think of who your super connectors are and let them know I’m looking.

  [00:21:55] Mosah: So let's talk a little bit about that, that notion of a super connector for a second. There are people that every one of us knows who are just that, and maybe we ourselves are that, but can you talk a little bit about how those super connectors need to be activated and the hustle that's required by a candidate when searching for a job?

  Rarely is it, at least in my experience that someone decides that they want to find a job or change roles or whatever the case might be and instantly, or even sometimes within weeks or months, that recruiter calls that individual with the right opportunity. They’re very few people that have that experience.

  So could you talk a little bit about the hustle or grit that's required in a search?

  [00:22:43] Kristi: Absolutely. One of the things I think really helps is expectations. What will feel like a, a regular search for an organization can feel like an eternity for a candidate and especially for a results driven, successful executive.

  So the process can be quite challenging overall. So preparing for that is very, very important. The other thing is you do need a resume. Some people have not prepared a resume and you don't just need a resume for looking for a job. You're going to be vetted for a board or other types of experiences.

  A resume is important. So making sure that you have a resume that is updated, that really reflects metrics. So I'll see resumes a lot and there'll be very narrative storytelling, but they don't give me any indication that something successful was delivered. So I want to see percentages and numbers. I want to see something that you delivered.

  [00:23:50] Mosah: That’s so interesting because getting back to your comment earlier about behavioral based questions, right? Many people, and if you're not, I think the listeners should Google the star methodology, right? S T A R, because that's one form of responding to behavioral based questions. And I can't tell you how many clients, the highest percentage as close to a hundred as possible, who, when they first start working with us, have the S the T and the A, but miss that R, and the R of course, is the results that you're referencing.

  And that's often absent from a resume. That's probably the most important thing when, when a hiring manager or search firm is, is reviewing someone's information. So I'm really happy that you brought that up. Could you share a little bit more about how the process that you go through when you're looking for not just percentages and specific dollar amounts, but what that means by way of employment, because that's really why someone's getting hired is to achieve those results.

  [00:24:52] Kristi: Especially in executive roles, there is a nervousness or a caution from many of our clients that they're going to get someone who is very likable and really does well in the interview, but is going to come on and not be able to deliver what they've talked about. So that's why we use the behavioral interview approach and we use the STAR model.

  I actually add an extra R in there when I'm working with people too. Friends and family call me and they're like, okay, I'm ready for an interview. It's not just results, but also reflection. Because you can't just always tell the best story. Sometimes you're going to tell a story that's not that great.

  You maybe didn't get the results you were looking for, but what did you learn about it? And the best interviewers that we've had follow the stars model, but tell it in a story where it makes you lean in and you want to know what happened in the situation. And that's why I tell them, you know, go through, google the STARs model, it’s very easy to think about: situation, task, action, result, reflection, but tell it in a story. Give us something. So when you walk away, they may not remember what question they asked, but they remember that you did something and it was compelling and it was informative.

  [00:26:15] Mosah: So funny that you mentioned adding an extra R because I to add an extra R, but I put it at the front end, RSTAR.

  So when someone asks one of our candidates who were working with or one of our clients, who's a candidate in a search of behavioral based question. I always say, start with the result, let people know why you're answering the question and where you're headed and then come back to it at the end. But I really liked the reflection portion because it does help contextualize it so that that's sage advice for our listeners.

  So thank you, Kristi. So let's say a candidate is interested in contacting you. What happens when they send their resume into your database or send it through an email? What does that look like for you. Just says, hi, I'm a talented individual who has achieved results. help me find a new.

  [00:27:05] Kristi: So our search firm is more of a boutique search firm.

  So there are larger search firms. They're smaller search firms. We are boutique. So often we will receive a resume from someone, but we may not necessarily have a role that would fit them at that point. Depending on how the resume comes in, it either goes into our database, but once again, I'm talking about the network.

  If it comes through a network, I will spend time talking to someone. So I will set up some time, ask them what they're looking for and see if I can connect them to other recruiters. I actually was able to help someone last year, who was referred to me, did not have a role that we were searching for, was able to connect her to some of my colleagues who were also in different search firms. And she was successful in finding another role.

  So being able to connect, talk to people and not rely on just sending emails without any follow-up. Most people, if you ask them for time, they'll give it to you, but you have to ask.

  [00:28:11] Mosah: That's great advice and beyond, you know, recruiting firms and search firms have a subset of the market, right? Obviously not every company or employer engages firms for searches.

  What are some other approaches that you would suggest a candidate look to or lean on to help find their next role?

  [00:28:30] Kristi: One of the things I tell people to do is to think about the work they're doing and the work they want to do and the type of company where they want to work.

  So I'm here based in Michigan and there are individuals who will say I want to work in a large organization, but I don't want to move. What can we target? Well, let's look at what companies are headquartered in Michigan. What hump companies are headquartered within the area where you'd like to work? Are there organizations that might be in the region that would allow you to have some type of hybrid work? And then start to target them.

  Who do you know proactively? Because maybe there's a role that that's there, that isn't with a search firm and isn't going to be posted. But you may end up being able to get your resume in front of someone. The other thing I really strongly suggest people do is what I call informational interviews. So find someone who's working in organization and say, I know you don't have a role right now, but I'd love to come over.

  Talk to you a bit, tell you a little bit about my background and find out more about your organization at a minimum. You've made a network connection beyond that it could lead to a role.

  [00:29:50] Mosah: So if you're an executive level candidate beginning your job search today, because you've either been let go, or you want a change for any multitude of reasons, what advice would you give to that candidates starting their search tomorrow?

  [00:30:06] Kristi: I think the most important thing is to have a partner to support you. And that can come in many different forms, but I'm talking about a professional partner. When you are searching for an executive role, most of those roles are not going to be posted on LinkedIn. They're not going to be, even if they're in a search firm, you're not going to be able to know that they're there.

  So you need to have some support and being able to find that. But also, I would say you need a partner to help keep you grounded through the process because if you have been employed and you've been employed in an executive role and you are used to a certain pace and delivery, the search for another role can be quite challenging.

  So having someone to say, okay, let's think about what it is that you want to do. Let's explore that and let's see how we're going to target this and make sure that your metrics, because you need to have metrics for your job search. What does that look like? So you might say I'm going to have lunch with at least three people every week.

  Or I'm going to make this many calls to individuals. I'm going to follow up. I'm going to reach out to my network and build it. Think about my super connectors. We talked about super connectors earlier. Who do you have in your network? Who knows everyone? And continuously let people know that you're looking, make sure that they have your resume.

  If you hear about something follow up, that can be daunting all by yourself, especially if you're used to being in an organization where you have a lot of support. So having a partner is really important.

  [00:31:58] Mosah: Candidates or clients come to us and begin working with us, who haven't searched for a while, who haven't been on the job market.

  So once we help them with their tools and all of the materials that they need to search, the expectation is that they don't necessarily need to put in the same type of effort, or this experience is so different than what they'd gone through in the past, because they'd been recruited or they were at lower levels in an organization.

  Can you give some advice to those folks who are entering a search maybe for the first time in quite some.

  [00:32:33] Kristi: I always say to people that you have to work your search like a job. If you take it lightly, it will come through on the interview. All of the things that you would do to push for excellence in a corporate role in your executive role.

  You need to think about what excellence looks like in your search. I can't tell you how many people I've interviewed I don't really need to do this part, or I already know. And you don't want to assume that you know, because you don't. When you have the opportunity to go in and interview, you want to know everything you can about the organization.

  You want to have done your research. You don't want to just show up and feel like perhaps you were the pick of the litter and they should be happy to have you. You really need to go in with your best foot forward and show that you were really interested. That can be difficult for some executive roles and taking that into account, I believe one helps with humility.

  A lot of times you want to make sure that humility is coming through in your interview, that authenticity,

  [00:33:50] Mosah: In a genuine way. Right?

  [00:33:52] Kristi: Absolutely. And that you, you're not just looking for the title that you care about the organization. So all of those pieces make it a little more difficult than I think sometimes people anticipate.

  So getting those expectations ready to know that this is going to be hard work. You're going to be working it as hard as you have in your roles. And you're going to be in learning mode, which is more challenging than when you are fully competent and know what you're doing.

  [00:34:27] Mosah: Kristi I'd like to spend a little bit of time talking about your clients. And of course, as a search firm, your clients are employers. Can you describe the process of scoping a search with a client? What you're going through on that.

  [00:34:40] Kristi: There are certain clients that we have that have, I would say more HR maturity. Which means that we can sit together maybe in a couple hours and put together a very comprehensive outline of what they're looking for.

  So we understand from a cultural standpoint, we understand what the competencies are. We understand what the role is in the moment and where it needs to go over time. There are other organizations we work with where we need to learn more. And in those cases, we will have stakeholder interviews. We'll say, who can we talk to and interview to understand what this role does?

  What makes us successful and to really understand. And we will do what I call a 360 interview. So we'll look at who might this role report to who might be the peers who might report into it. And then we'll gather that to understand what we should be looking for. It really helps us. So we spent a lot of time in that scoping process because it helps us to go fast in every other part of the search.

  When we know who we're looking for, we can do a phone screen and maybe talk to someone for 10, 15 minutes and think we have someone, but once we get into a full-blown interview of an hour or more looking through the questions, we know if there's a fit or not. So we're able to come back and present some really great candidates for our clients.

  Some clients feel like, wow, that's a lot of effort. But at the end, they really appreciate it and they want us to help them in other areas.

  [00:36:28] Mosah: Yeah so it's kind of one of those, the adage of go slow to go fast kind of thing.

  [00:36:34] Kristi: Absolutely.

  [00:36:36] Mosah: So can you share a little bit of insight into sort of the timing and length of a search that you might work on?

  And there's probably a wide variety market conditions, timing of year, compensation, any number of things that contributed. But it might be helpful for those looking for jobs to understand what that spectrum of time could potentially be.

  [00:36:55] Kristi: We like to gage about three months from first interview to actual hire.

  Sometimes it moves much more quickly. Sometimes it takes a little longer. And we make sure that we take our time because sometimes for our clients, they needed someone yesterday. And having the right fit is really important because we want someone to come in and be successful.

  So while we are taking our time upfront, once we get into that actual interview, sometimes we can have a slate of candidates within a couple of weeks. Now what typically slows down the process, and this is important from a candidate standpoint and from a client standpoint is getting people aligned to interview. So what will feel like an eternity to someone interviewing might not feel that slow for a client.

  What we've seen with the move to video is we're able to move hiring processes much more quickly because it's easier to get the interviews in. With some of our clients, they want to add extra interviews in because why not? We can do it. We can get people on video, why not interview them? And that can stretch that process out too.

  So we try to upfront identify who is going to be a part of the hiring team. Who's making the decisions and then being able to move forward that way. And we are usually able to get somebody placed from first interview to start date within about three months. And that includes, especially at an executive level, people need to give notice if they're in a role and often that can be up to a month or more.

  [00:38:51] Mosah: So can you maybe share an experience either from your time, whether it be at General Motors or Kelly, or even in your current role where you really had to fight through some complexities of an arrangement. Um, so whether it be an executive's compensation package or a non-compete agreements, maybe some of those stickier situations that you've, that you've encountered, because it's not uncommon for executives to have pretty complex arrangements with employers.

  I'm curious to know if you could share some, some experiences or lessons learned. I think most of the time it comes down to communication and trust with, with a future employer, but curious to get your thoughts.

  [00:39:35] Kristi: Let's talk about non-compete. Cause I think those are one of the things that sometimes executives don't understand or underestimate, we ask very early on if someone has a non-compete and we like to understand what is in it.

  Non-competes really don't work if they're not enforced. So companies need to enforce them. And often candidates are surprised when they are enforced. There are certain individuals, these are, I would say more the exception than the rule. Who have very specific experiences and an organization will be willing to maybe hire them in a separate role that is outside of their non-compete area to get them into the organization and move them later.

  I've seen that rarely. That is not typically what I see. What I do see is individuals becoming one of our final candidates and not understanding how restrictive their non-competes are. So maybe they can work in that and do that work, but they cannot do it in the area where this job is located. So understanding that becomes very, very important.

  And finding out early on, if there's any exceptions or waivers, sometimes organizations will do that, but you have to ask. And once again, communication is key. Sometimes people, for whatever reason, don't want to ask. It's better to ask and to be told no than not ask and to be in a situation where you can't start in a role that you really, really wanted.

  [00:41:15] Mosah: So I'd like to segue for a moment to what you're looking for. Obviously, you need qualified candidates. They need to have the requisite experience and have achieved adequate if not stellar results in their areas of expertise. But what are some of the things that you're looking for and how do you identify the talent for that sort of it factor?

  And then what are some of the red flags that you see when you're sourcing candidates?

  [00:41:43] Kristi: One of the most important factors that I'm seeing with almost every client is having someone who is open to learning. Once certain individuals get to a point in their careers, maybe not intentionally, but they can give off this feeling that they, they have all the knowledge and there's not much more that they can learn. That can be misinterpreted and not be received well by clients.

  So I often talk to candidates, especially if we've talked to them early on, about having a learning mindset. And when I coach clients who are successful, I have to talk to them very specifically around you have transferable skills, but they are not automatically going to work in this role that you're going into.

  So you have to go in with a growth mindset with a learning mindset and listen, before you speak, consider what else has been done? Don't assume that your best idea is the best idea for the situation. How do you bring other people along? So we will ask and look for that in interviews and our clients are specifically looking for that.

  And you can fake it and make up some stories and do great in your interview. But it's going to come through when you actually start in the role and we want people to be successful. When the best things you can do is to make yourself uncomfortable. Think about what is it that I don't know that I need to learn and keep yourself in an area where you're always learning something.

  So you can have that humility and remember what it feels like not to know something.

  [00:43:34] Mosah: That's great advice, tremendous advice, and a perfect segue actually, to training and development. So tell us a little bit more about your T&D experience you've worked at one of the largest companies in the world as a head of talent development.

  So can you, can you share a little bit more about your experience in that area?

  [00:43:56] Kristi: One of the biggest changes I think for training and development is the move away from classroom only. So when I started my career, there was a philosophy that everything had to be in a classroom and it needed to be facilitated in and people probably would not get value if they were not flown in, sitting together learning, and you could keep your eyes on them and have an engaged training experience.

  Over the years with global financial crises and organizational challenges financially, I had to think differently and others in roles like mine had to think differently to say, how can we help people learn and grow yet, not fly them and have them sit into you know, in a classroom, how do we make that work?

  And that's where this premise of blended learning has come in. Where you can watch a short video, you can get something and then come in and have an experience where you're looking more at application, behavior change, relationship building, accountability. So at this point, that is much of what I do from the, the leadership advisory part of our business is to record a short video about change. What has changed? Why is it important? Why should you care as a leader and then bring leaders into an experience that has them consider what they're living. How is that impacting your ability to lead? How is it impacting you as an individual?

  Do you even understand why the organization is changing and how are you going to work through to be the best leader you can be and deliver on all the things that you're already needing to do in your role? That blended learning, that collaborative learning, we sometimes call it circle learning, where you get a small group of people who are learning at the same things.

  And having a shared experience is really, I think, where we're going. You can still do classroom. It will be interesting to see how that plays out. But I think that we're sitting with blended learning for quite a while.

  [00:46:16] Mosah: Really interesting commentary on, on the evolution of training and development and also about, I think maybe you're touching on a topic that's often referred to as some of the adult principles of learning when it comes to approaching people with different forms of learning, because not everyone learns in the same fashion.

  Is that a safe assumption?

  [00:46:36] Kristi: Oh, absolutely.

  [00:46:38] Mosah: So one of the things that I think organizations and we talked about this a little bit earlier on the topic of the succession planning need to do is invest in training and development in order to work on retention. Right. Particularly with people staying in jobs for shorter and shorter periods of time and a greater volume and a velocity of turnover in organizations writ large.

  I'm curious to know how you might've leveraged training and development during your time at General Motors and then specifically, you know, what does Sigred do today to help organizations work on retention? So that they don't have to call the other portion of your business and have you find people for them.

  Um, training and development, I guess with respect to retention would be the question.

  [00:47:18] Kristi: One of the things that I think retained people in many ways is the opportunity to learn and that the organization invested in them in what they are interested in learning. And that can show up in all different ways.

  So of course, we use a platform that had lots of certifications you could go on and do self-pay certifications, and learn. There were also opportunities for people to learn in small groups and still classroom. There were still classroom opportunities, but more localized versus having in the past a lot of training departments had very large budgets for travel.

  So a lot of that travel, you won't see as much, but still the face to face is valuable. The other thing that I've seen a lot of development happening through is through affinity groups. So organizations within a company, a group of people who have a shared interest, actually going to the organization, asking for funding and sponsoring different types of development in that way.

  So that helps a lot. There is a big change in my opinion, from the types of development that people wanted earlier in my career. We used to talk about people wanting development to get the corner office. And for many organizations, there is no corner office, or it might be shared or whatever it is, it's different.

  So there is a desire for many people to have depth and breadth, not just to be the most technically astute person, but also have EQ.

  [00:49:10] Mosah: EQ is important and there are a number of other factors that are important to someone's training and development plan. Would you share a little bit more about that?

  [00:49:18] Kristi: One of the things that we know is the higher individuals move in an organization into executive levels, the less technical competency drives success.

  A lot of the success factors start to move into other areas, and those are sometimes more difficult for people to move into. So I'll give you an example. We can have someone who is a working director and may lead people, but also has opportunity to push her, you know, her sleeves up and do the work. When an individual was moved into that next level, often there is a feeling of loss.

  I don't get to do the fun work anymore. My direct reports have to do it. And now I'm dealing with this strategy stuff and there's not really anything tangible. that I can look to, to say that I've done a great job today. When you're sitting, you've already been through that process, it's hard to remember how difficult that is yet.

  If you can train people and have development to say, this is the journey we're putting on. You're going to feel uncomfortable. It's normal. You're going to need to let go of doing the work so that you can manage and lead and drive the strategy we need you to drive. Often setting those expectations, giving someone maybe a coach or a peer, a partner, a mentor in the organization to let them know what you're experiencing is normal in your, you are successful.

  Success is measured differently. That helps with succession, it helps with retention. That’s where a lot of times people will leave an organization because they have a feeling of discomfort. And perhaps a feeling that they are going to fail. So perhaps I should leave before I fail. Where in reality all they are going through is a natural growth process and if they can just work through it, they will be successful on the other end.

  [00:51:31] Mosah: Kristi one of the things, our candidates that we work with experience is sometimes, and it's more the exception than the rule that they know exactly what they want to achieve and they're on their way to getting to it. And they need a little bit of facilitation. Most of the time however, when a candidate or a client comes to us, they often don't know how to get started in their search or the prospect of looking for several months is incredibly daunting to them and they don't know where to begin.

  I'd say that's probably more the case than the former scenario that I described. If you're an executive getting started for your search today, what would be some advice that you, given your years of experience might lend to that person?

  [00:52:15] Kristi: I would start by saying, connect with an organization like Top Talent.

  That would be the beginning, especially if you have been in an executive role for a while and you have not searched in a while. It is not just the technical support that you would receive. The looking at your resume. Having someone help you with interview skills. That's the easy part. The more important part is to help you as you go through the emotions and disappointments and successes in the search. Because you will have different feelings about your search process. You may think that you were the top candidate. You may not get a role. You may become the top candidate and be surprised and not be sure that this is the organization where you would fit.

  You need to have a partner to be able to help you through that, especially at that executive level, because the decision you make is so important.

  [00:53:24] Mosah: Kristi, thanks so much for being with us today. We really appreciate you taking the time and sharing your insights and wisdom with our listeners. I know they valued it and I know I valued it. So thank you again for taking the time. As we do on every episode, we support a nonprofit that is a particular point of passion for our guests as a small way of saying thank you.

  And so I'm wondering if you might be willing to share with us what nonprofit we should be supporting?

  [00:53:51] Kristi: Absolutely. I sit on the board of Focus Hope it is a nonprofit in the city of Detroit, and it has been in existence since 1968. I remember being a preteen and a teenager going to walk to support Focus Hope.

  This organization is focused on overcoming racism, poverty, and injustice, and they do it in a very interesting way. They support early childhood education. They support food for seniors and they provide job training. So being able to support that organization, would not only make me really pleased, but also be able to impact a wide range of people and change lives in the city of Detroit.

  [00:54:38] Mosah: Kristi thank you so much for joining us today. Can't tell you how appreciative we are of your time. A lot of our listeners who are interested in learning more about you and about Sigred Solutions to either engage you for services, pick your brain. What's the best way to get ahold of you?

  [00:54:54] Kristi: They can go to our website, www.Sigredsolutions.com

  They can email me kisti.stepp@Sigredsolutions.com or you can give us a call 313-474-1300.

  [00:55:17] Mosah: Thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate having you on the show.

  [00:55:20] Kristi: Wow. This has been an honor.

  [00:55:23] Richard: Thank you for joining us on Hiring Insights. Remember, you can learn more about Top Talent Advocates and listen to other episodes by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and click on the Podcast.

  You can also email us at tta@toptalentadvocates.com

  Description text goes here

Alex Su | Career Transitions, Leveraging Social Media for Business Development, and the Evolution of LegalTech

Alex Su, Head of Community Development at Ironclad, joins us to discuss his career pivot, his insights and recommendations on how to utilize and capitalize on the advantages of social media, and how to generally pursue a job that you’re not only qualified for, but that you’re passionate about. Alex is active on TikTok (@legaltechbro), where he makes videos poking fun at the legal industry and is a columnist for Above the Law.

• What does Ironclad do and what puts them at the forefront of Legal Tech?

• The explosion of Legal Tech and valuable resources to learn from: Legal Tech News, Bob Ambrogi, and The Artificial Lawyer.

• Career pivots and non-linear career paths are more common than not, and it’s key to remember that sometimes the setbacks provide the biggest opportunities in the end.

• Considering a different path? Take action, try something new. You don’t have to leave your job immediately, try something on the side that may provide insight into whether it’s a good fit for you.

• Exploring opportunities, networking, and leveraging your background for success.

• Social media is social. Do you know how to master engagement to create your own community of ambassadors?

• LinkedIn: unparalleled for business purposes. What MUST your profile include?

• How to connect with decision makers in pursuit of the unpublished job market.

• Embracing your passions for career success.

TOP TALENT ADVOCATES REMAINS COMITTED TO PHILANTHROPIC EFFORTS. EACH GUEST IS ASKED TO SUGGEST ONE OF THREE NONPROFITS FOR OUR SUPPORT.

• American Cancer Society

• ALEX SU TRANSCRIPT

  [00:00:00] Richard: Welcome to Hiring Insights. The podcast that provides insight into the executive hiring process and experience. Whether you are a job seeker, a people leader, a recruiter, an executive coach, or simply interested in talent, there is something here for you on Hiring Insights. Today's episode is presented by Top Talent Advocates, where we advocate for executive and legal talent.

  You can learn more about Top Talent Advocates, listen to other episodes, and hire great talent by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and clicking on podcast. Now here is your host for Hiring Insights, Mosah Fernandez Goodman.

  [00:00:44] Mosah: I’m incredibly excited to be joined today by Alex Su. Alex you may recognize from his social media posts, his Tik Tok videos or his actual engagement as a sales leader in the Legal Tech industry. Alex is a tremendously influential and insightful executive. Today were going to learn from Alex about his career pivot, his insights and recommendations on how to utilize and capitalize on the advantages of social media, and how to generally pursue a job that you’re not only qualified for, but that you’re passionate about. Alex is a graduate of Northwestern University Pritzker School of Law and attended Carnegie Mellon for his undergrad.

  Thank you so much for joining us today, Alex, we're incredibly excited to have you on the show. For those of you listening to the episode who might not know about Alex or know anything about his background, I'd love to give him an opportunity to share a little bit. So Alex, would you tell us a little bit about your background and maybe what got you to where you are today in Legal Tech?

  [00:01:49] Alex: Absolutely, and thank you for having me on this show. I'm, I'm very excited to be here and excited to talk about my career. I started off as a practicing lawyer.

  I had a pretty traditional career path clerking for a judge and working at a big firm. Six years into my career I decided to make a pivot and I went into the legal technology space at a startup and decided to go into sales. Did that for five years. And after five years, I moved to my current role at Ironclad.

  We're a digital contracts technology company. And my function now is on the community team, which means I do a lot of things to engage with the community, like creating content that's relevant to our target audience, but also hosting events, hosting webinars, just doing a lot of things to continue the conversation around digital contracting.

  My law experience has come into play. But a lot of what I do now is more on the business side. I don't practice law. I don't do the job of a typical lawyer, but I'm loving it. I'm very excited and it's giving me opportunities to be on podcasts and shows like these. So I'm very excited about it.

  [00:02:54] Mosah: That's great. Thanks so much. I'm sure a number of the listeners are going to go out and google if they don't know Ironclad already, but would you tell us a little bit more maybe about what makes Ironclad different and in private conversations with me talked about the tech curve within the legal space and maybe just what sets Ironclad apart and what you're looking forward to about being a part of that and part of the sector in general.

  [00:03:18] Alex: So Ironclad primarily helps by helping you accelerate the business contracts cycle. So large companies and small companies, all companies actually deal with business contracts like sales, contracts, vendor agreements, non-disclosure agreements. We help that process move quickly because very often we find that that process is, is pretty manual, whether it's done by paper or in your inbox.

  And so our technology helps generate new contracts based off templates, route it to the right people, integrate with the different systems of a company to help accelerate that process. And we're very much focused on serving companies. And we also have AI that helps extract what's inside existing contracts.

  So you basically have a sense of, of what's coming in your contracts on what's already in your existing repository of contracts. So that's apparently a very big business problem in the world. And I think it's a very exciting problem to solve. I think lawyers and legal technology companies are uniquely positioned to solve that.

  And Ironclad is at the forefront of that, both from a feature set perspective, but also because we integrate with other systems and we have the AI, we have a lot going on that that can help. So that's what we do at Ironclad. And we've received funding and venture investments from some of the leading investors from Silicon Valley, like Sequoia, Accel, Y Combinator, Continuity.

  So it's just a very exciting time right now.

  [00:04:42] Mosah: That's awesome. Thanks so much, Alex. And you know, I guess Legal Tech is one of those things where one of those industries where people want to know more or they maybe make some assumptions about what it is and whether it's applicable to their business. If you were sitting down with who I imagine some of your key customers or decision makers to be, whether it be a general counsel, a chief financial officer, CEO, chief revenue officer, maybe someone in procurement. What's the compelling reason to take a look at the sector generally? And then maybe what's the value proposition from Ironclad. Some of which you've already touched on.

  [00:05:16] Alex: So contracts touch every single company and touch every single function. If you're in HR, you're dealing with employee agreements. If your procurement you're dealing with your vendor contracts, CFOs are obviously very concerned with spend. So knowing what's inside of your contracts and making sure contracts are being generated in a uniform process that mitigates risk, these are all important things.

  I think where Ironclad is really unique is that we help accelerate the process of generating contracts, which means there is a real business impact. It's not just telling you what's inside of your contracts. It's impacting the contracting cycle for sales. As we all know, decreasing sales cycles is extremely valuable.

  If you can do that by shrinking down the amount of time it takes to get a contract approved, which our technology helps with, that has huge, huge impact beyond just the legal team. It affects sales, it affects the finance function. There's so many things that it impacts. So I think that's where Ironclad is unique.

  But Ironclad also focuses on the entire life cycle. So not just generating and contracting, setting up new contracts, but also looking back at old contracts. And I think this is an exciting time because the technology has matured. Ironclad is a leader in this space, but we've seen a growth in this digital transformation of a lot of the work surrounding contracts just in the past few years.

  Just because I don't know if it's because legal has always been a little bit behind the curve when it comes to technology. But the digital transformation trends that are impacting other functions are now hitting legal and really moving into the contract space. So it's an exciting time, and it's really exciting to be part of Ironclad, which is at the forefront of this movement.

  [00:06:53] Mosah: That's awesome. So now that everyone's excited about legal tech, who's listening to this episode and with the primer that you've just given all of us, let's talk a little bit about what it means to work within the sector. You've been in it since if my research is right, 2016, and it's very fast moving.

  What insights might you give to someone who is exploring the sector? What makes someone want to join that as opposed to FinTech or as opposed to any of the other fast moving similarly situated industries? Tell us about what it's like to work in Legal Tech.

  [00:07:26] Alex: So, you know, as you know, I, I started off as a lawyer.

  I never imagined that I would go into tech or Legal Tech. I didn't even know Legal Tech was a thing. I think that's part of why there's so much opportunity. It's not exactly a very hot area that everyone knows about like FinTech, but the challenges are so big. You can imagine in the legal sector, in the legal industry, you've got firms doing a lot of work that are archaic, that are relying on manual methods because perhaps firms make money from the billable hour.

  And so there's no incentive to, to streamline activities through technology. So there's a lot of upside in this space. For a long time there's not been a lot of technological change, but sometime around 2016, right around the time I joined the space, there were a couple of trends that hit that led Legal Tech to grow really quickly.

  You know, one of them was macro like the digital transformation wave that hit all sorts of different functions. You know, you had marketing tech, sales tech, HR tech, all sorts of technology, really having an impact. So it was a matter of time before it moved into legal. And then second, there was this rise of this discipline called legal operations that helped streamline a lot of the work that legal departments and lawyers do.

  The third factor, I think, was that investors started picking up on this and started investing in Legal Tech companies. And all of these factors have led to this explosion in this space. And so I think that we're very early still in the Legal Tech growth phase. I do think there's going to be a lot of different problems that technology can solve, but it really comes down to what challenges you think technology could solve best.

  For me I think it's contracts. I think that it's a really interesting time in the shifting role of the in-house lawyer, the legal department, the general counsel. So that's why I'm very bullish on this space.

  [00:09:15] Mosah: If I've been inspired by what I've listened to on this episode, and I've followed either you or other folks who are focused on the Legal Tech sector, how do I begin a journey into entering into that universe if you will, for my professional pursuits?

  [00:09:31] Alex: Well, I think that there's a lot of really great resources out there.

  I'll share some of the ones I look at, which are Legal Tech News, which is a subsidiary I think of the American Lawyer, ALM. There's Bob Ambrogi who has a blog. It's really a media company. He's got podcasts and articles. He breaks the latest news when it comes to Legal Tech. And he's been doing it for like 20 years. So he is a real authority in it. And just like, just by looking at some of the articles you get up to speed quickly.

  The third is a man named Richard Tromans. He's I think in the UK, he's the founder of another media company, The Artificial Lawyer. He also covers developments. And so I think a lot of what's happening in Legal Tech is fairly new.

  There are a lot of these outlets that cover these developments, not in a way that, like, you know, you don't read about it perhaps in the New York Times or in the Wall Street Journal, always, although I think last week or actually yesterday, there was a Legal Tech article in the Wall Street Journal about Exterro eyeing an IPO in 2023.

  So maybe that's changing, but right now I think those are the three resources, Legal Tech News, Bob Ambrogi’s blog and The Artificial Lawyer.

  [00:10:43] Mosah: So let's talk a little bit more about your experience in Legal Tech and the transition because you know, a lot of listeners who either are attorneys or who are business leaders makes shifts in their career. Can you tell us a little bit about your story. You used to be, as you've said, a practicing attorney, what made your venture into sales successful? And then what were some of your greatest challenges during that shift?

  [00:11:08] Alex: I think what made it successful was that I, it was, it's more in line with my personality than the traditional practice of law.

  You know, I've always been a people person. I'm an optimist. I always, I enjoy trying to convince people of things. And so sales was a natural fit. And I think I first realized that when, between my clerkship and my going back to the large firm that I worked for, I had some time. And so I volunteered on a political campaign thinking that they would have me do some policy work, something analytical, and they said, we don't actually need help with that.

  But what we do need help with is phone calls and door knocking. And I thought, here I am like with a law degree why, why would I do that type of work? But I was willing to do whatever it took to help our candidate win. I learned that I was good at calling. Like I, I just took to it. And then looking back, I think some of the weaknesses I had that made me, perhaps not the best associate, not maybe not the best young lawyer, like not having an eye for detail.

  Like some people really, really have a close eye for detail. I tend to miss things, but that also helped me kind of brush off and miss slights or rejections. And so I was able to bounce back again and again. And so by spending two months working on this campaign, doing something different, it gave me the insight that I might be able to do something like cold calling, which was useful when I decided to make the pivot to sales.

  Now, I wasn't sure if sales would work out, it was a pivot. It was kind of a calculated risk. But I also knew that sales was interesting because it brought me closer to revenue. And I had learned that if you can tie your work closer to revenue, there's a lot of rewards that come with it. And so I thought it a worthwhile bet, worthwhile pivot to make, even if it meant that that I would be leaving the practice of law and starting over as an entry level salesperson.

  And, and I gotta say Mosah, like those early days were challenging because it's like a new muscle. You've got to learn to reach out to people out of nowhere. You know, as a lawyer you're used to preparing a lot and then you're trained to be over prepared. But in sales, you almost have to have the opposite approach, at least at the junior levels, because you’ve got to make a lot of calls and you can't research every person.

  And so some, you know, some of those mentality shifts were really challenging and learning this, the sales organization, understanding how to hit quota, forecast your deals and your opportunities. That all was like a was totally new. But it was exciting. And as I grew in my career, I realized there was actually some similarities between sales and practicing law, especially like staying organized, wanting to persuade people, whether through a court hearing, a brief, or an email or a sales call, there are some similarities, but it was an adjustment and it took me a while to get used to. So there certainly were some challenges.

  [00:13:54] Mosah: Sure. Absolutely. And for our listeners and you know, a lot of our clients spend a lot of time on LinkedIn. I'm sure we all get those outreaches from whether it be a LinkedIn email, right? Or LinkedIn mail.

  Um, in fact, I think I joked with you, I think probably five years ago, so it might have been like your first year involved, I got one from you and I'm like, oh, what is this? Right? I mean, I specifically remember it, but I also remember saying what's Legal Tech? And I do remember the outreach being, I think it was from a previous employer really, you know, positive and upbeat.

  And it made, it made sense that of the 20 or 30 that I had responded to. I would've wanted to get back. And I think I did reply when you were, um, we obviously didn't need the services, but it was definitely a great outreach and you know, every no is one step closer to a yes. Right? That whole sales adage.

  Let's talk a little bit about non-linear career paths. It's something that we've talked about with previous guests. We've talked about it with Matt Miller, the General Counsel at Uptake. We just recently talked about it with Jenny Champlin, who’s the outgoing president of NAWL and former Walmart and current Edward Jones leader.

  You put out a tweet and I'm going to quote you, that summarizes your non-linear career path. You said, “Some of the most strategic decisions I've made in life weren't because they were part of some clever plan, but because some s--- happened and I had to improvise.” What was the best thing to happen that was not a part of your original career?

  [00:15:24] Alex: When I look back at how I ended up in sales, I'd like to think it was a courageous leap, but there was this period of time where I left big law and kind of conventional success. And I said, I'm going to try something different. I went to a smaller firm and then I got let go because I wasn't a good fit.

  And there were a lot of reasons why, but I got let go. And I was like, all right, I'm going to start my own business. And I did that for a year and, and which wasn't working out. And so I had gone from failure to failure. In search of meaningful work. And I remember being kind of at my wits end and thinking, I don't know how I'm going to salvage this.

  I better get a job. I better do something. Now what felt really like a desperate situation at the time, now when I look back, I think it was such a blessing because I had shed myself of all of these burdens, of all of these reasons and justifications to not make a pivot, right? A lot of lawyers, I think, struggle with walking away from the practice because they got a good thing going. Might not be perfect, but it's still pretty good.

  I kind of lost everything. You know, I had been let go from a job and I had failed at starting a business. And so I just needed a quick win. So I just quickly acted. I got a job in a Legal Tech company in sales. Looking back, that was really, really helpful because I didn't have this preconceived idea of how much money I needed to be paid, what my salary needed to be.

  All I was focused on was how do I learn this new craft of sales? How do I do well at it? And so I think that made all the difference. And that's why I say to people, yeah you know when I talk about my career pivot, it sounds really smart. Sounds like I thought it through. But really, it was also just improvising when I was kind of hit with a challenge. And looking back, I have tried to challenge myself again and again, because I think sometimes when you put yourself out there, it could seem scary.

  But even if things turn out bad, it may create another opportunity perhaps to pivot or perhaps develop a new skill. And I'm very thankful for all of those setbacks that I went through now.

  [00:17:26] Mosah: Yeah. That's great insight. You know when we're working with our clients, whether it be business leaders or attorneys, sometimes you're right the greatest opportunities come from the greatest challenges. It's also not uncommon for us to work with someone, to figure out what path A, B or C could look like, and sometimes D, E and F. Sort of rank them and develop a plan for that. But you need to take action at the end of the day, right?

  We don't provide, say life coaching services, and we're not designed to help you think through your childhood or some significant sort of longer-term type of experience, but we are designed to try to help our clients take action. And the fact that you highlighted that as being one of the best elements of your experience combined with just tenacity is great.

  Thank you for sharing that.

  So you talked a little bit about feeling stuck in your career during one of your TikTok videos and your transition from law to sales. What advice would you give to those listeners who want to pursue a different opportunity, but are hesitant to make a transition? They may be gainfully employed. They may be in roles that are lucrative, right?

  Our clients are making a few hundred thousand up to a few million. So those are, those are by all accounts, very lucrative opportunities. What advice would you give to those folks? And I'll preface it by saying, we always work with our clients to make a plan, right? You actually have to have a plan.

  And whether it's one, two or three different versions of that plan, you have to have that. But what advice would you give to someone looking to make that kind of a transition?

  [00:19:02] Alex: I think that action is the biggest thing. And so sometimes action does not mean that you have to leave your job. When I think back to why I was able to make that calculated risk to go into sales, it was because of this other experience.

  I had that experience on the political campaign that I did on the side. You know, I didn't have to leave the big law world for. And so when I talk to people about considering pivots, I think when you make that major pivot, you should have probably some connection, some experience and some hunch that you're going to be really good at it.

  So to find that, I mean, you can do things while you're still employed or you're still in your same role. And that doesn't mean you have to take two months off like I did, it could be at nights and weekends, it could be a side project. It could be a lot of things. I think most people don't understand what their superpower is.

  And I myself am still trying to figure that out myself. It's been refined over the years. Like I used to think selling, but I've also found that there are a specific niche of sales that I think I'm good at. And by the way, all the content that I've created, the Tik Toks that I'm best known for today, that was created to solve a very specific sales problem.

  Lawyers don't like to take cold calls. I don't like to take cold calls. So, which is why I'm so honored that you, you had such positive memory of my cold outreach, because I know that I would not be so kind to someone who did outreach, but because I was trying to solve those problems, I found that I had this ability to create engaging content for business development purposes.

  And so I'm leaning into that. That's my long-winded way of saying that if you are at a place where your opportunity cost is high. Don't walk away from the job. Just try some different things on the side and learn more about yourself before you make that big leap. Because by the time you make that big leap, you want it to be a calculated bet that makes it worth it.

  And you don't want to just kind of try something that might not work out. So that's what I would say.

  [00:20:52] Mosah: I'd say about half our listening audience are attorneys and the other half are executives of any other position, whether they be in the finance, admin, HR, biz dev, sales, what have you, but for the folks who are in the legal bucket, right? For the attorneys online, listening to this, and they're looking to make a transition outside of law, how would you suggest they explore roles and industries that might be adjacent to the law, but, and still sort of rely on those skill sets in that training, but not necessarily even require a JD or might have sort of in the proverbial job description JD preferred. We work with a lot of attorneys who want to make that transition out of either private practice or even in-house counsel. How would you suggest those lawyers go about exploring and pursuing those types of opportunities?

  [00:21:48] Alex: Well, I think networking is always going to be important. You want to be able to talk to people to get their experiences. I think learning too, like reading some of, if you're in Legal Tech specifically, there are those blogs and articles and sources of articles to read and you get up to speed on what's happening in the space.

  So I think researching, networking, but also understanding where you sit and this is maybe yeah, very much geared towards lawyers. If you're a lawyer, you're probably a potential buyer of technology, of legal technology or of other services that are legal adjacent. Just think of the classic large law firm lawyer.

  They're probably getting bombarded with calls from recruiters. Recruiting in itself. That's a very fascinating space, right? And that is a common alternative. for ex lawyers. So I think as a practicing lawyer, there are things you can explore in conversations you can have with people who may be offering you services or products. I'd say talk to them, connect with them. Network and you'll learn the landscape.

  And the landscape is always shifting. Like I mentioned, technology and recruiting. One other niche is litigation finance, which is pretty small, but is growing in impact. It wasn't something that was huge 10 or 20 years ago, but now it is. You can probably leverage your legal background to learn more about that space.

  So I think that there's a lot of things out there. Just network, research, and just talk to people. And who knows, you know, I think those connections are the ones who are best able to bring you opportunities. And that's certainly how I got my role at Ironclad.

  [00:23:20] Mosah: That's tremendous. So as a salesperson, as someone who's affable, as someone who's not in any way shy, given your TikTok videos, how would you recommend someone cold call?

  How would you recommend someone make that initial outreach? And here's what I'm thinking. I talk through this situation with clients all the time, they're a senior level accountant and they're looking to contact the CFO because they either see an opportunity or they are really passionate about the company, or just want to make a shift.

  Or they're a junior attorney somewhere looking to go in house, or they simply want to shift law firms, but they don't necessarily know how to make that initial outreach. So how would you, I guess, cold call for that networking opportunity? What advice would you give to folks?

  [00:24:02] Alex: Well, the first thing is that you want to make sure you're talking to the right person.

  A lot of times, someone who wants to make a transition, they talk to someone who has the job they want, which is helpful, but I would even take it a step further. And so, for example, if you want this general counsel role, maybe you talk to the CEO or the COO. If you want a deputy GC role, maybe you talk to the GC.

  You want to talk to these decision makers because they're the ones who are best able to pull your resume out of the stack. So to speak. We learned that in sales about, you know, choosing who the right decision maker is. So that's, I think that's number one. Number two is to really look at who's in your network, who you might know, who knows that person and LinkedIn has really been able to help out with this because you can see who your mutual connections are.

  A warm intro is far more likely to get you in front of the person then a cold email, that or cold message that the recipient might just ignore. The third thing I would say is to really think through how you can help someone. And this is where I think a lot of people get tripped up because you know, I, myself, you know, get these emails and I'm sure you do too.

  These me emails and messages. Hey, can I pick your brain? I can get grab coffee so you can share something with me. I think that can work. But what makes that more effective is if, is if you can provide something of value to the other person, there’s a lot of ways to do that. And I think it's so specific, but the example I like giving, I would work on a student. Students often want to, to pick brains of successful executives.

  They don't know how to get in front of them. There's very little value they can offer. Cause they're very junior. But what I found some really creative students do, and I think this is a really great idea is that they will get a group of five or 10 other students. And then get them together and then reach out to the executive and say, hey, are you open to speaking to us as a group? That has a different flavor than hi, can I just take some time off your calendar to like ask you questions?

  It's a very different feel. There is value being exchanged. And so I think that's that the combination of these three approaches lead to much higher conversion rate. It makes it more likely that someone will, will give you the time. Certainly it takes a bit of effort, but I think it's worthwhile, especially if you're exploring a pivot.

  [00:26:15] Mosah: Absolutely. So let's follow that vein for a second and talk a little bit about how to pursue that cold outreach online. One of the things we work with our clients on and a lot of our social media scripting support for clients, centers around finding that decision maker, making sure that people are obviously professional and polite, but are to your point on adding value, giving something to the person, as simple as a like, and all the way through to commenting and supporting someone's posts frequently, often, and adding value online while it may run the risk of seeming a little creepy at the start, or for some folks who are perhaps a little more, reluctant to engage in that social media forum.

  Our recommendation, our view is you're giving someone value by not only validating, but by engaging. And we often stress social media is social, right? It's got to be both ways. And so someone like you, who's got millions of views on TikTok and, you know, approaching a hundred thousand followers on LinkedIn or connections on LinkedIn.

  I still often see you giving value by commenting and liking lots of different people's post. At all different levels of organizations and some of it is paying it forward. I'm sure. But some of it is also just smart outreach and engagement. So I've made a statement and intended to ask a question, but what are your thoughts around, social media outreach and making those introductions online?

  [00:27:53] Alex: I think you hit the nail in the head when you said social media is social. Everything flows from that. Something happens when we go on the computer and like, we go on the internet and people forget that they're human beings. Like, could you imagine going to a conference and like handing out sheets of paper of an article you wrote, and then someone reads it and says, hey Mosah, this is such a great article, I love it. And then you just kind of walk away, like, who does that? And yet on social media, that's what happens. Right. These very important executives, they say, I will post something and then I'm too busy to respond. And so that's part of the reason why I try and I, I find it hard myself to, to catch up on all of the comments too, but I try when I can to respond because people are investing time in engaging with you.

  It's just nice to engage back. And the thing that is strategic about it, which, you know, sometimes I think is strategic sometimes I think is just, if you treat people kindly, they'll help you out is that you're not always looking to impress people who could help you in some way. When you are kind to, to lots of people, they become your ambassadors.

  They become people who find opportunities for you. The way that I've really built out my social media presence and helping with business development isn't that I sell to everyone I comment with or DM with it's that they are often out in the world, talking about me, talking about what I I'm offering that is contracts technology software, and, and referring people to me.

  And so I think that is just kind of how the real-world works. It's always worked that way. It's just that the internet has created a new element to this. So I want to continue engaging with people. And I think by the way, and this is why Ironclad created this community team community function, we realized.

  In addition to your traveling, your classic sales and marketing, you want to have a conversation with the community you serve. And by doing that, you create a lot of warm feelings, goodwill, and the people you engage with end up being ambassadors for you. And so that's why I think it's so important to continue the conversation commenting back and forth, liking each other's posts. That’s always going to be important

  [00:29:55] Mosah: Absolutely. And as far as adding value and, and I think people often feel that giving thought or being intentional in this outreach is somehow deceitful or overly salesy. And I think it's just being thoughtful and considerate in the way that you're approaching an interaction.

  As you said, you know, with the fellow human being. One of the things we also encourage our clients to do beyond simply commenting and liking. And, and I know I'm getting into the nuances of, I sort of see a feed in my mind of what's online right now, but is making introductions for people before you ask for anything.

  Right? So the types of paying it forward by way of making an introduction, whether it be students to a larger group to promote, you know, a company or a firm or an organization. All the way through to I think there's someone in my network who I'd like to make an introduction for this person to either a potential customer or a potential client.

  And it doesn't even have to be business related. Someone who just happens to know a lot about what someone might be engaging in. That is an even deeper level than simply liking or commenting on it. We do that research for our clients because often either our clients don't have the time to do that or the network or the inclination, but can you share a little bit more about how you would take those relationships even deeper online? You've been a master at that.

  [00:31:19] Alex: Thank you for saying that I'm a master at that. I'm still figuring things out as I go along. And when I first started out posting content, I actually thought I don't really understand, I don't know these people, let me jump on a call with them.

  Not like just on the internet but I guess on zoom, but not on social media. Right. I wanted to get to know them. I wanted to hear about them, what their interests are, what their worries are. And so I went down the list and I actually met with probably over a hundred people in a month or two.

  And I just wanted to hear from them and just kind of learn and understand where they were coming from and how I could potentially help. A lot of people think about social media in the sense of what can I get out of it? And I have found again and again, that once you keep creating deposits into social media, into people, it gets paid back.

  You don't know how and when and where, but it gets paid back. And so I think being less transactional has been helpful, but those conversations have to take place. And you do have to give people value if only just telling them I'm curious about you, tell me more about you. And then over time, as you kind of build out your network, you can see how people can be connected to one another.

  You can provide value by with just a, a quick email intro. So I think that that to me was, was my way of, of figuring this out. And by the way, again, like I kind of just figured it out as I went along, it was never deliberate in the sense that I was trying to get some sale out of them or anything like that.

  [00:32:44] Mosah: Sure. Well, whatever you're doing is working because you have 90,000 followers on. You've been described or taken on the name, LegalTechBro, which I don't know if it's pronounced bro or bra and some of your videos have over 3 million views. I want to talk for a second about the right social media platform.

  There are a number of them out there I'd like to maybe contain the conversation to what works most effectively for job seekers and for professionals. And I think the automatic response is LinkedIn because it's the professional social networking site. But can you talk a little bit about why, assuming that's the answer to the question, why that might be the case and what features and benefits you see in that versus other social media platforms?

  [00:33:29] Alex: Absolutely. I'm active on four different platforms, LinkedIn TikTok, Twitter and Instagram, LinkedIn by far is the most valuable network when it comes to job searching, careers, business focus, and I've spent some time thinking about why people are so different on different platforms. I'm active on all of them because my niche is legal, but also humor. And humor plays out on all the different platforms.

  But when it comes to business purposes, LinkedIn is unparalleled. So when it comes to career to finding out what's happening in the business world, LinkedIn is the primary place to be. I think part of that has to do with who's there. I think executive level audiences are on LinkedIn. I mean, if you imagine you're a CEO, you're a chief legal officer, you're head of marketing or something like that.

  All of those folks will have a LinkedIn presence. They may not for other platforms. That's the first part. Executive level, senior level folks are on LinkedIn. The second thing that's very different that I didn't appreciate early on is that people on LinkedIn wan to meet and connect with one another. You take another platform like Twitter, where you do get some good insights.

  You do have some senior folks on there, especially from the technology space and venture capital space. I don't know if they're more introverted, but they're, they're a little bit less interested in connecting with one another. Some of them do on a one-on-one basis, but LinkedIn feels like everyone wants to meet each other.

  And there's a positive energy that's there. Maybe it's because it's tied to your, your actual name, but there's a lot of features and traits of LinkedIn that make it very, very special. So I would say LinkedIn is the place to be for those two reasons. Uh, the senior, the seriousness and the senior level executives on there, but also that people want to connect with one another, which makes a lot of this networking really effective on that platform.

  [00:35:19] Mosah: Let's talk about LinkedIn more specifically, if I'm a job seeker at any level, but for arguments sake, let's say it's a senior level in an organization, lawyer or non-lawyer. What are some of the, and, and I know you come across a lot of profiles, so what are some of the things that jump out at you as being the absolute non-negotiables to creating a profile and activity? And then what are some of the things that you would say stay away from please never do. What guidance would you give to those folks? Not only looking for jobs, but as they maintain those, those online presence.

  [00:35:54] Alex: So assuming this is for career purposes, uh, because different people use LinkedIn for different reasons.

  It's not always primarily career. Interestingly. For career folks I think the non-negotiables are you need a picture The picture has to be in line with your brand. And that could mean a very professional picture. You're in marketing. I've seen effective pictures where they have, I think, different colored hair, but they're like in marketing and so it it's aligned with that creative marketing brand. So it's got to be aligned, but it's got to have a picture. Because when I see someone without a picture, I think this might be a bot. This might not be a real person. So that's important. I think your headline is critical. That's the first thing people see and you know, you could put in your job title. You can also do things like a lot of sales people do, which is they talk about the value proposition of their product or service. So you can get creative with that. That's the first thing people look at. You got to have something there. Then I would say it is a nice to have a solid summary that describes who you are and what you're about.

  In a way that ties together your work experience. Lots of people take this in a different way, but I tend to think that you can create a story about yourself. Like for me, I'm a lawyer who went into legal technology and now I bridge those two worlds together. That's my value proposition. And can see that for my job history.

  I think that is very compelling and easily me. It makes you memorable so that your brand gets, uh, remembered. And then each of your jobs, they have to be placed in there strategically. Like they have to serve the general narrative. So, for a salesperson you may want to highlight your attainment to quota and then your management experience, like each piece needs to be put in there.

  Just like for lawyer, just like you want to cite to these certain authorities and these, this evidence that I am a skilled executive. So I would say those are the key pieces. Look, everyone's busy. And I know that it can be hard to do, but there's a lot more. And I think those are the basic ones that if you just kind of do all of those things, you'll get a lot of rewards out of it.

  People will find you as a compelling person. It may reach out and connect with you. As for what you should stay away from. I think always keeping in mind what your goals are and if it's career, networking or job searching, you don't want to be too controversial in your posting. We're talking about people who are not trying to do marketing on LinkedIn.

  We're talking about people who are doing career related things you don't want to be known for your outrageous personal opinions. You'll have to use your judgment for what you want to share and don't want to share. But I think that because of the way the algorithm works. Everyone in your connections can see what you're commenting or what you're posting.

  So you want to make sure that that's representing you in the way that you want to be represented.

  [00:38:30] Mosah: If you wanted to utilize social media in particular, LinkedIn, to advantage your job search right now, what tip or trick, or soon to be trend as someone who spends a lot of their time managing social, would you give to a job seeker?

  [00:38:46] Alex: I think you want to be connected to the decision makers who could give you what you want.

  What I mean by that is that, you know, the last two jobs I've gotten in legal tech. They were not jobs that were posted. They were jobs that were created for me. And it's because I was connected to a lot of these founders or CEOs of legal technology companies. They were the ones who would give me what I wanted.

  And so I think having that connection will be a big part of it. And these days people are open to connecting, even if you've never met them. Put in a nice message in your connection request, that shows why you can bring value to them. I think that could go a long way. And then the way you present yourself on your profile, having a brand, that's going to also go a long way if they're looking to hire you.

  So for me, you know, I wanted to present myself as an expert in Legal Tech just a few years in this was, you know, several years ago, I made sure that I had a banner picture at the top of me speaking at a legal technology conference. I had the work experience. I had everything described out like I am a lawyer, so I have expertise in this industry, but I also had Legal Tech experience.

  So I can speak tech. That's just the way I present myself. And so by being connected to the right people, by presenting myself in a certain way, that helped me not only find opportunities, but have opportunities find me as well.

  [00:40:03] Mosah: So I want to ask you one final question about, and it's actually a quote from you and it has to do with sort of conventional success. Let me read the quote and then explain to you why I think it was so interesting. So these are your words, right? “Because what they never tell you, especially in law school is that conventional success is often anything, but they're just proxies for success.”

  And you said this in reference to chasing credentials, purely for the sake of having them. And sometimes people chase, not only educational credentials or some ways people treat salary or compensation as a credential. How would you for a job seeker who's thinking about advancing, counsel them on what that actually means in terms of conventional success? Because your success has certainly been anything but conventional for someone with your pedigree and career trajectory.

  As you mentioned earlier, have taken a couple different twists and turns in managing that. How would you, again, being the sort of human that we are guide people to think about or encourage them to consider what conventional success means versus maybe the path towards satisfaction or happiness?

  [00:41:23] Alex: I think we all have to figure out what we're meant to do.

  There's a lot of pieces that go into that, which include your own talents, what the market needs. You know, when I went into law, I, I didn't think about it that way. I thought of, if I worked at this firm, whatever the prestigious firm was, I would be set. And I quickly realized that I was starting to play that game of getting the firm on my resume for the sake of getting the firm on my resume. I wasn't actually developing skills. It wasn't taking me to a place where I could really have about really have a contribution and be valued. And so I ended up in something less prestigious in sales at a startup. And I found that I actually was quite good at it. And I grew very quickly.

  And the thing that seemed like it was not something that I could be very proud of, like an entry level salesperson. I quickly grew out of that and carved out this career for myself, where I was having an impact and I was making more money. It was only a few years before I was making more money than I did as a lawyer, as a salesperson.

  And then at that moment I started thinking, where do I go next? And then I started falling into the same trap. I thought, okay, well, all the people who do well in this space, in sales, they go on to become VPs of sales or chief revenue officers. And I thought I'm going to do. There were a few things that happened along the way.

  Right. I realized, okay, well, a sales manager's job, a sales leader's job is not selling. It is managing. It is forecasting. It is leading. It is managing up and down. It is organizational politics. It is a lot of things, but it's not selling. It's not the thing that I knew I was good at. And I was good at.

  And so that kind of had an epiphany. I was like, I've seen this movie before. I'm starting to play the game for the game. I'm trying to get this VP of sales, the CRO job, you know what it was just like a title. And so I was like, okay, I made this same mistake before. I'm going to take a step back. What do I really love?

  I love selling, let me do that and not waste my time, climbing the ladder for something that, that doesn't make sense for me. That was the moment that I started thinking, okay, I want to sell, how do I sell more effectively? What challenges are there? I noticed that generating sales pipeline was tough. This is when I started really focusing on content.

  First on LinkedIn later I went to TikTok, but first on LinkedIn. As I was generating content, I created a new way of sourcing opportunities. Now, was there a book that said, if you're going to build a sales career, you have to figure out how to use social media to generate sales there wasn't. But because I focused on what I truly felt like I was meant to do. My eyes were open to different problems that I could potentially solve that led me to this other place. Right? And so I'm never going to be a law firm partner. I'm never going to be a CRO or a VP of sales, but I think I've created something very unique and valuable. That's tied to me and that I enjoy and I'm good at, and I think that is what many people don't do. They expect to hit the titles in the job, adding things to their resume without figuring out is that what you're meant to do? And that's why I wrote that article. And I certainly don't have all the answers and I'm trying to figure out where again, where my place is, what I'm meant to do, but I feel like I'm closer to it now than I was before.

  And I think I did that by avoiding those mistakes. So I'll get off my soapbox, but that's kind of what that, that article is really about.

  [00:44:42] Mosah: If you were to be offered a CDRO role, would you consider that?

  [00:44:48] Alex: CDRO was CDRO?

  [00:44:50] Mosah: Chief Document Review Officer, would you take that role would that be something you gravitate towards?

  [00:44:57] Alex: Well Mosah, how much, what's the compensation look like? That's no, I'm just kidding.

  [00:45:02] Mosah: That's what's all the title, Alex. You have the title, it's all in the title.

  [00:45:04] Alex: It's all in the title. It's all the C level title. There you got that's so good. No, that's totally right. You know, that’s exactly the point.

  [00:45:12] Mosah: We always support a nonprofit on the podcast. We make a contribution. We found in, in thinking about the planning for those contributions, that while we've contributed to individual charities, we want to make the greatest impact that we can. And we've selected three charities. We've selected the American Cancer Society, Feed America and the ASPCA.

  In honor of your being on the show, any of those three really strike a chord or, or which one would you like to make have us make a contribution in your honor for?

  [00:45:42] Alex: I think all three are wonderful and any one of the three would be great. I think if I had to choose one, the American Cancer Society, but honestly, Mosah I think this is a great thing and all three would be fantastic.

  [00:45:55] Mosah: Tremendous. Thank you.

  [00:45:58] Richard: Thank you for joining us on Hiring Insights. Remember, you can learn more about Top Talent Advocates and listen to other episodes by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and click on the podcast link. You can also email us tta@toptalentadvocates.com.

  Description text goes here

Breaking Down the Executive Search Process: Working with a Firm, Candidate Insights, and Career Advice

Dimitri Mastrocola, Partner and In-House Counsel Recruiter at Major, Lindsey and Africa, joins us to provide a “peek behind the curtain” into the executive search process. Dimitri walks us through the milestone steps of an executive search and shares insights for legal talent and executives actively pursuing a career change or strategically planning their next steps. He is known on LinkedIn as Wall Street's best connected executive legal recruiter and shares his networking dos and don’ts to capitalize on social media as a resource and tool.

• The milestone steps of a search (with estimated timeframes).

• Advice for the job seeker: approaching your search methodically, with discipline, and how to get on the radar of relevant search firms.

• Don’t underestimate the breadth and depth of your contacts.

• LinkedIn: you MUST have a profile and be capitalizing on the value it brings to your career search.

• Compensation negotiation: when should you be utilizing an advisor or advocate to ensure maximizing your compensation package?

• How are recruiters vetting candidates during the initial interview rounds?

• The importance of deep conversations between the recruiter and candidate.

• The legal market is changing, the positive effects on a candidate’s geographical search.

TOP TALENT ADVOCATES REMAINS COMITTED TO PHILANTHROPIC EFFORTS. EACH GUEST IS ASKED TO SUGGEST A NONPROFIT OF CHOICE FOR OUR SUPPORT.

• Vitamin Angels

• DIMITRI MASTROCOLA TRANSCRIPT

  [00:00:00] Richard: Welcome to Hiring Insights. The podcast that provides insight into the executive hiring process and experience. Whether you are a job seeker, a people leader, a recruiter, an executive coach, or simply interested in talent, there is something here for you on the Hiring Insights. Today's episode is presented by Top Talent Advocates, where we advocate for executive and legal talent.

  You can learn more about Top Talent Advocates, listen to other episodes and hire great talent by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and clicking on podcast. Now here's your host for Hiring Insights, Mosah Fernandez Goodman.

  [00:00:44] Mosah: Welcome to another episode of Hiring Insights. Today my guest is Dimitri Mastrocola, who's described on LinkedIn as Wall Street's best connected executive legal recruiter. After attending undergraduate and law school in Canada, Dimitri entered private practice in Montreal, Quebec, eventually moving to New York to work for Shearman and Sterling LLP.

  After leaving private practice, Dmitri joined Citibank as Senior Vice President and Associate General Counsel and has spent the last 16 years working for Major Lindsey and Africa as an Executive Search Consultant, recruiting chief legal officers and their teams. Please join me in welcoming Dimitri to another episode of Hiring Insights.

  Dimitri, welcome to the show and thank you so much for joining us today.

  [00:01:37] Dmitri: Sure. Thanks for having me, Mosah.

  [00:01:39] Mosah: I'm wondering if you could start off by just sharing a little bit about your background, who you are and how you came to be in your current role.

  [00:01:47] Dmitri: So I am a search consultant at Major Lindsey and Africa, one of the world's largest legal search firms. I'm a former practicing lawyer, having practiced both in private practice and as an in-house lawyer in a large financial services firm in New York. But for the last 16, almost 17 years, I've been with Major Lindsey and Africa focused on placing general councils and their teams within the financial services sector.

  [00:02:14] Mosah: To meet you. There are a number of search firms and there are a number that are focused specifically on the legal market. I'm wondering if you might just share a little bit more about Major Lindsey and Africa and what makes Major Lindsey and Africa great?

  [00:02:28] Dmitri: Sure. Major Lindsey now is a search firm that was founded 40 years ago and was kind of a pioneer in legal recruitment in the United States.

  We have since grown to be a global search firm with over 200 search consultants, most of whom are former practicing lawyers. And at this point, you know, MLA is synonymous with the legal profession. We conduct more general counsel and in-house counsel searches for clients than every other search firm combined.

  We also conduct searches and recruit for our law firm clients. We're looking to add lateral talent at the associate and partner level. So it's a very robust recruiting platform, intensely focused on lawyers in the legal profession. And, and I think we're one of the best at it.

  [00:03:19] Mosah: That's great. And obviously Top Talent Advocates works with a lot of attorneys and I, myself am an attorney, but I hope for the listeners out there who are not attorneys themselves, or who might have wanted to turn off this episode, as soon as they heard attorney, that they take a moment and learn that so many of the insights you're going to share with us on this episode are applicable to candidates generally.

  And while there are elements of search that are unique to the legal profession, my assumption, and maybe you can correct me on this Dimitri, is that the process and some of the things that you'll be sharing with us today are certainly applicable to non-attorneys as well.

  Is that, is that a fair statement?

  [00:04:03] Dmitri: Very fair. So as a search firm, if you're recruiting for General Counsel or Chief Legal Officer, say a Chief Financial Officer, a COO, or even a CEO, the process is very, very similar. The candidate pools are different, but the search process and the considerations that come into play from terms of the hiring entity, the hiring manager, the search firm, are the same.

  [00:04:27] Mosah: And so being an attorney and having developed an expertise in the field that you're recruiting for, I was wondering if you might be able to share a little bit about your experience in becoming a recruiter or a search consultant, just a few words, if you would, about what drove you to do that.

  [00:04:41] Dmitri: It is a different path; recruiting isn't something that most people take on as a primary career. It's usually something that one kind of backs into as a second career, after a number of years in a primary career. So my primary career was in law. I was a practicing lawyer, both in private practice and as an in-house lawyer.

  It was close to 15 years into my legal career. I started to get an itch, to do something different. And I was very proficient as a lawyer, but I wasn't passionate about it. And at the time I was actually studying and becoming certified to be a coach. And what I wanted to do is become an attorney coach and actually began to take steps to do that and eventually quit my in-house counsel job at Citi to launch my own solo attorney coaching practice.

  I did that for about six months and then realized that being a solo entrepreneur and the sole breadwinner of a family with a stay-at-home spouse and kids and a mortgage may not have been the wisest move. And so I had to pivot quickly and go back to finding a real job.

  But what I didn’t want to do was go back to practicing law. So that's when the light bulb went off. The thought of becoming a recruiter or a search consultant in the legal space entered my mind.

  [00:06:09] Mosah: Let's talk a little bit about the business decision to hire a search firm. You post, if not every day or multiple times a day, I know you post every day on LinkedIn and some of your posts have focused on why organizations choose to engage a firm.

  And sometimes they talk about when a search firm isn't the appropriate solution to finding it or filling a talent need. When should an organization reach out to a search firm to engage their services? And when do you find that's the most efficient, successful decision for an organization?

  [00:06:44] Dmitri: Well, generally, you know, a search firm is brought in is either a senior strategic role. So it's a role of strategic importance to the organization, or if the role that needs to be filled is simply a difficult one in terms of a difficult skill set. Maybe it's a niche skillset, or it's a difficult search because of market conditions. It's just maybe a very tight market.

  So it really has to do with the, either the strategic importance of the role or the difficulty of the search effort, which can have to do with the candidate pool, the position description, or just general market conditions.

  [00:07:26] Mosah: Can you help us peek behind the curtain if you will, can you walk us through sort of the milestone steps of a search? When I work with candidates, it's often-I submitted an application and I haven't heard anything or I reached out to so-and-so and they, I don't know where they're at in their process.

  So just large, big milestone steps. If you could help demystify that process from your perspective, for those who might want to peek behind the curtain, if you will.

  [00:07:55] Dmitri: Certainly. There's generally two ways a search firm becomes involved in a hiring process. A company may reach out to the search firm directly because of reputation or they've worked with the firm before and they'll just call the firm and say- hey, we have this, we're looking to hire this senior person.

  It could be a Chief Legal Officer. It could be a Deputy General Counsel. It could be a Chief Compliance Officer for instance. And they say, let's talk about engaging you in a search. The other approach is it's a competitive bid situation, if you'd like. The company is speaking with 2, 3, 4, 5 different search firms and they invite the firms to pitch competitively against the other.

  And then after the pitches, they kind of select a search firm. So assuming a search firm has been engaged or the milestones typically are as follows. So the company will sign an engagement letter with the search firm whereby the, the company agrees to pay fees. Typically an executive search firm fee is one third of the annualized total cash compensation for the candidate. The fee is typically payable over the course of the search, usually in three installments. First installment, when the engagement letter is signed, the second installment, typically when a susceptible candidate is submitted and the final installment usually is upon offered acceptance.

  There are variations to that, but that's generally, at least that's how major Lindsey and Africa does it. Then engagement letter signed, but what happens then is the search firm and the key internal constituents of the company need to agree on a position description on a position specification. This is a document that the search firm will use to go out into the marketplace to market the opportunity.

  It's a job description, and it's something that is usually prepared by the search firm based on an internal draft provided by the company. So the company will have you know, one pager or two pager with a number of bullet points, the search firm will take that work with it, beef it up a little bit. They go back and forth with the company, finalize it.

  Once that's finalized. Then the search firm is positioned to go out into the marketplace, go to market as we say, and launch the search. And the outreach begins almost immediately. And over the course of say 2, 3, 4 weeks the search firm will go out into the marketplace, engage with potential candidates, determine preliminary interest, have some preliminary screening interviews, generally at week three or four, at least in the case of MLA that's when we like to provide our client or the client with an initial progress report with some resumes and profiles for the client to consider. We'd like to call this a calibration discussion. What that means is it provides the company with an early opportunity to provide feedback into the candidate pool, into the candidates that the search firm has come up with in the early going.

  And it enables both sides to course correct if needed. To adjust sales and to kind of optimize the continuation of the candidate sourcing effort. What happens after that is some companies like candidates to be submitted in the slate format, which means it basically a list of, you know, eight to 10 candidates or maybe six to 10.

  And this is kind of the final slate. And then the company decides which of the candidates they would like to interview. The other approach is to submit candidates on a rolling basis. So after the initial calibration candidates, let's say after week three, then the search firm may, if the client prefers submit candidates in maybe groups of two or three in supplemental slates, you know, two or three times.

  So rolling basis. Weeks eight to 10 into the search, the search firm will probably have canvased the market pretty thoroughly and be confident that the candidates they they've submitted to that point are sufficient in terms of, you know, being confident that at least one of those candidates will be the one who ultimately gets the job.

  And then what happens after week 10? It's all about scheduling the candidates with the interview teams of the company and kind of aligning calendars, making sure people are available, you know, vacations come into play. Holidays, travel. So for a senior role, let's say it's a chief legal officer role, it's not unheard of for the process to go six months, maybe even eight months from start to finish.

  If it's a lesser role in the legal team, deputy general counsel or an assistant general counsel role that could be a three-to-five-month process start to finish. Those are the major milestones I would say.

  [00:12:53] Mosah: That's incredibly helpful. And I think a lot of the folks listening to this episode, or either taking notes or will rewind to understand what's going on from the employer's perspective, but of course it's a very different experience on the candidate side. And this is something that you often write about on LinkedIn and, you know, three months or eight months, if I were to talk with some of my more senior level, say legal talent, they would be elated over the prospect of getting or thinking of their searches only taking six months.

  Of course, for some of the elite positions in the higher compensated positions in the country it can take much longer than that. So I wonder if you might join me now in switching to thinking about the candidates’ experience. Can you give us some general advice for a job seeker?

  [00:13:43] Dmitri: Sure. The first thing I say is you've got to be patient if you're a job seeker.

  And particularly if you're a seeker for a, a C level role, whether that's General Counsel, Chief Legal Officer, or even CFO, COO, et cetera, you've got to think about a 12-to-18-month timeline to find the right fit for yourself. So that's point number one is be realistic about how long it'll take and it usually takes longer than you think. The other major points is you've got to approach the job search process methodically with discipline and you need to be consistent about it. And you really need to treat it like a, a true project and you need to apply kind of project management discipline to the entire project. You can't be haphazard about it. Any job search requires kind of a weekly commitment of time to network and do research and plan and strategize.

  And so I always counsel, when I've got my candidate coach hat on, I tell potential candidates that they need to take the series seriously. And you can tell what somebody's priorities are by looking two places, their checkbook or their calendar. In this case it's the calendar that's most important. I tell candidates to block time on a recurring kind of weekly basis in their calendar to devote to the job search, whether that means doing research on LinkedIn or an indeed.com or other online databases to look for opportunities. Where that means thinking about or thinking through who to network with. Having weekly time devoted in the calendar is extremely important. And putting in that weekly time consistently is much better than doing it once a month and spending five hours in a weekend.

  I'd rather have somebody spend 45 minutes or 30 minutes once a week to devote entirely do some deep work on the job search then to spend, you know, six hours on a weekend once every two months. So it's the weekly consistency that it's extremely important.

  [00:16:00] Mosah: If a candidate wants to advantage themselves in the light of a search firm or wants to simply get noticed, what advice would you give to an executive level job seeker?

  [00:16:13] Dmitri: There are a number of things an executive level job seeker could be doing. Let's talk about how to get noticed or get on the radar screen of relevant search firms. A job seeker can do some research in terms of which search firms might have the clients or the search assignments of the type that could be relevant to him or her.

  And these could be generalist executive search firms, or they could be specialist executive search firms. I would consider major Lindsey and Africa more of a specialist firm because we have a functional focus on legal, the generalist executive search firms, for instance, have a legal practice, a financial practice, but how do you get on the radar screen of a search professional?

  I think the easiest way to do it is via email. Identify the person you want to introduce yourself to Practice a brief respectful email, attach your resume and simply ask the search firm or the recruiter to be placed on that person's radar screen for potentially appropriate opportunities and maybe describing in the body of the email what a potentially appropriate opportunity could look like for you. You need to thread the needle there in that message in terms of being too focused or too general in terms of what you're looking for. But the resume, your resume will speak for itself. And what you want to do is ask the search professional to add the resume to their database and to keep you in mind, if something appropriate or to come up with one of their clients and to contact you at any time should a potential match occur.

  That's the easiest way to do it. You know, some candidates they'll go further and kind of push for a phone call or, or meeting. And that's fine I get where they're coming from. I wouldn't push too hard, but it's fine to ask. All I would say there is you know; a search professional's primary role is to conduct searches on behalf of its clients.

  So a search professional's ability to help any individual job seeker is entirely contingent upon that person having the right search assignment at that time. And when most job seekers approach a search firm it would be incredibly unique for that search professional to have a live assignment that's a match at that time.

  Usually the email comes in, the search professional promises to keep the person on the radar screen and they may actually have a conversation three months later, six months later, or 12 months later when the right opportunity materializes. So that's the way to get in touch with a search firm and get on their radar screen and it's okay to follow up.

  You want to do it kind of on a normal cadence but not too often. So I recommend quarterly, just shoot an email and say, hey, I'm still looking still on your radar screen. If anything comes up, do let me know. That would be well received and an easy way to just stay front of mind with a search firm.

  [00:19:14] Mosah: No, I think that's great advice. Candidates look to approach search firms to, to signal to those firms, their level of interest in potentially being placed at a client. Of course, search firms only have a certain percentage of the market and to your astute comment, the timing has to be right. So if I was an executive level job seeker today, would your advice of presenting yourself to search firm be where you start and stop, or what are some of the other pieces of advice that you would give to clients or candidates who are looking for their next opportunity?

  I can't imagine it's starts and stops with an email to search firms.

  [00:19:55] Dmitri: No, no. I mean, staying in touch or getting known by search firms is just one part of the strategy and it's not even the major part. So it's probably 20 to 30% of the strategy. I mean, most of your effort as a job seeker has to be in trying to uncover positions in the word-of-mouth market.

  And which means either the word-of-mouth market or positions that are actually posted online, that aren't being handled by search firms. So that's where most of your efforts need to be placed. And that requires a lot of diligence and just good old-fashioned networking. Putting your head down and doing research on a weekly basis.

  So networking means, you know speaking with contacts in your warm market. So these could be former colleagues, people you went to school with. If you're a lawyer, people you went to law school with maybe somebody you went to business school with, or undergrad. People you worked with in your early career who have moved on to other places.

  Think through individuals in your Rolodex, I'm dating myself by saying that, but in your kind of contact list of your warm market and think about who might be in a position of hiring authority, but more particularly might be positioned to refer you to somebody that has hiring authority. And so my experience has been that many people underestimate the depth and breadth of their contacts. And so it sounds like an obvious thing to be networking with your contact list, but most people don't do it the right way and underestimate how many connections they truly have. So it takes a fair amount of focus and thinking and strategic thinking to think through the connections that you have and, and connect dots to others in your network.

  That's the first thing anyone should be doing is thinking through their contact list and the potential connections. And what you want to do is let people know, let the right people know that you're interested in hearing about opportunities. You don't want to be sound like you're interested in necessarily and jumping out the door from your present employer, but you want to frame it in terms of wanting to pull again to the flow of information, wanting to keep your ear to the ground, to hear about leads. So if they hear about something interesting, they should call you and let you know about it because you just never know it might be a great fit for you, or it could be a great fit for somebody you know, somebody in your network.

  The other thing I recommend is in the networking process it's really important to, to keep the principle of reciprocity in mind. So you don't want to be that person who's constantly out with their hat in hand, asking for referrals and recommendations. You also want to reciprocate and say, hey and be sure to offer your help and assistance to that person.

  If there's anything I could ever do to help you or to refer you to somebody or to connect you with somebody, please let me know. So you want to come across as yes, you're asking for referrals and connections, but you also want to be connected to yourself.

  [00:23:09] Mosah: Dmitri I think you've, you've accurately summarized, uh, a significant portion of the work that we do with our clients when we're, when we're helping market them, which is to help open doors, help make connections for people, both within our network but also helping them really mine their own network. I think your, your statement of people often underestimate the power of who they know and more importantly the people who they know and that's such an important thing to do when looking for your next role, I'm going to make a bit of a joke here and say that we met online, um, which is not too far off because I think we, our first exchange happened through LinkedIn and I was prompted to contact you when I saw some of your posts on LinkedIn.

  And I'm curious if you have any recommendations or guidance or candidates, active or passive candidates, when it comes to social media both in terms of presentation of their profiles and their activity by way of getting noticed and, and presenting themselves.

  [00:24:13] Dmitri: I do. I was kind of an early adopter with regards to LinkedIn.

  I saw the value of LinkedIn as a networking platform early on, it's been about 10 or 12 years now that I've been active on the platform. So I think LinkedIn is critical and a necessary component of somebody's job search strategy and more broadly just personal branding strategy. So if you don't have a LinkedIn profile, it's like not having a cell phone at this point or a cell phone number, you need to have a LinkedIn profile that is.

  [00:24:51] Mosah: Or Rolodex.

  [00:24:52] Dmitri: Or a rolodex. Do people know what a Rolodex is? Maybe the gen X-ers do, but, um, we digress. So having an optimized LinkedIn profile is a must, which means it's basically an online bio. You should have a professional looking headshot. You should take care to have a, an interesting headline. That's probably the most important piece of real estate on your LinkedIn profile is the headline right beneath your name and photo. And it should be something a little bit more creative than just the title of your job, but everyone should have a LinkedIn profile and that's kind of table stakes at this point.

  And you should try and connect with people in your network. People that you know, your colleagues, former colleagues, friends, professional contacts, professional advisors, and the like. And a lot of networking begins with LinkedIn with simply being on LinkedIn and connecting with people. But it's more than that. You can use LinkedIn actively to enhance your visibility and your public profile by posting, by creating content. And it doesn't have to be very extensive. You can begin by, you know, liking and commenting on other people's posts and being thoughtful about it. And that can expand to beginning to write your own posts and it could be simply to sharing an anecdote or an observation or your experience about things.

  I don't think you need to be very, as active as I am for instance, but being on the platform with an optimized profile that's sprinkled with the right keywords. What I mean by that is think about how a search professional might be looking for a candidate. They're doing a keyword search with usually skillset-based keywords or position-based keywords.

  So think through like the types of keywords that somebody might be using to find someone like you and make sure that your LinkedIn profile has those keywords sprinkled throughout, you know, the description of your various roles, because that'll will pop in a search. It'll make you easier to be found. The other thing I would say is on the topic of writing posts on LinkedIn, which is this a form of blogging if you like. If you have an opportunity to write and publish something or to be involved as a speaker, those things are incredibly valuable to a potential job seeker in enhancing that person's brand and making that person visible to recruiters and to hiring managers.

  [00:27:27] Mosah: Sage advice. Thank you so much for that.

  So if you had to give a candidate at the executive level or a more senior level with an organization, a piece of advice in today's market, what would that single piece of advice be? Tough question maybe because there's a lot and you've already shared a lot of them, but what would you say your best piece of advice for someone looking for their next role would be.

  [00:27:52] Dmitri: Network. Single most important thing you could be doing is networking. Networking in the word-of-mouth market, which unfortunately is the component of the overall strategy that is the most labor intensive and the most time intensive, and the one that requires the most discipline and consistency. But networking with your peers, colleagues, former colleagues, your Rolodex. Letting them know what's going on with you and doing so throughout your career. Not just waiting to do it when you need to. My advice has always been it's prudent career management, even if you're very happy, wherever you are, is to continue to network and to never let your networking efforts really fall by the wayside.

  It's something that you should be doing regardless of your level of happiness and satisfaction in a role and not something that you should be waiting to do only when you need to, when you're looking for a job.

  [00:28:55] Mosah: So Dimitra your advice around networking, your advice around working with search firms. What other resources, tools services might you suggest candidates consider?

  [00:29:09] Dmitri: Great question Mosah. There's a range of, you know, professional advisors and informal advisers that candidates or job seekers should think about. Because let's face it in my role as an executive search consultant, my time is limited in terms of being able to provide individual one-on-one assistance to a job seeking candidate.

  But there are professionals whose entire job description is to assist people in that situation. So there are people like yourself who are kind of candidate focused advisors that candidates should reach out to. And then the other category is professional coaches. Uh, there are attorney coaches for lawyers.

  There are coaches in every function and profession that are executive level coaches, whose role and purpose is to assist a candidate with thinking through and strategizing career satisfaction. A job search, I think it's an investment. It's a financial investment to work with those types of professionals like yourself and, and some of those executive level coaches that I mentioned, but I believe it's the smart candidates, the smart job seekers who do that, are investing in themselves.

  And that's never a bad bet to take.

  [00:33:28] Mosah: So Dimitri, one of the things that the people I work with and my clients are eager to get to, is to the point in a search where they're negotiating compensation. And compensation is part art, part science, and driven by a multitude of factors. What advice would you give to a candidate as they evaluate and potentially negotiate the compensation for their next opportunity?

  [00:30:52] Dmitri: Great question. In my mind, it depends on whether the opportunity is a search firm lead opportunity. And whether it's one that the candidate is on a negotiating or discussing directly with the potential employer. In the case of a search firm lead opportunity, generally the compensation discussions and negotiations are done through the intermediary of the search firm.

  Even with the search firm led opportunity with the search firm kind of acting as the go-between many C-level candidates will also in parallel engage with it could be a, an executive compensation attorney to advise them on the negotiation or how to structure an employment agreement or some other type of consultant. Maybe someone like yourself to help them negotiate kind of the finer points of the comp package.

  But generally speaking, I would say if it's search firm lead, it's usually candidate, search firm, employer, everyone's kind of aligned and motivated to come up with a win-win solution for the two sides and for the search firm.

  In situations where it's the candidate or the job seeker negotiating directly with the company and there isn't a go-between that can advocate on behalf, formerly advocate, like a search firm on behalf of the candidate, I think some candidates try and do it directly. That may be fine for a lower-level position, but at the C suite level, I think a smart candidate will have an advisor. And again, it could be an attorney, an executive compensation attorney, could be a coach.

  It could be someone like yourself Mosah who can assist the candidates. Not only negotiating, but getting a really good sense of benchmarking compensation and making sure what the candidates thinking of and expecting is in line with the market. Making sure that what the company is offering or putting on the table is realistic.

  So having a professional advisor and advocate at that stage is truly important. And again, it's an investment that's well worth the money.

  [00:33:04] Mosah: And so as your clients vet candidates, what types of things are they looking for in the interview process and what types of things send off the red flags?

  [00:33:15] Dmitri: We have a saying in terms of the important things in the interview process, it's that at least from the candidate side, you need to pass the chemistry test before you pass the math test.

  What do I mean by that? Chemistry is the establishing rapport with the company, with your interviewers. Establishing connectivity, coming across as a high EQ, as well as high IQ person, having strong interpersonal skills and being a potential cultural fit for the organization. So that's the chemistry test that often comes before the math test and the math test is alignment on hard skills.

  Its skill sets you know, an experience in terms of substantive skills required to do the job. So both aspects are important. The soft skills, the interpersonals, the communication style, the attitude, the EQ as well as the alignment on skills. The right experience, right academic credentials, right pedigree, that sort of thing.

  So clients are looking for kind of a plug and play solution to their talent problem. They want somebody who can hit the ground running from day one. And what that usually means is someone for the role, who's done a similar job at a similarly situated company in a similar industry.

  And who has kind of the interpersonal attributes that, that will work well in the organization.

  [00:34:47] Mosah: So building on that, what advice do you have for candidates when they're sitting down or maybe even initially on a phone call when it comes to interviewing for their next executive level or senior level role?

  [00:35:02] Dmitri: The number one piece of advice, it's going to sound obvious, but it really isn't because many candidates don't do this well, is prepare and do your research on the company and the people you're meeting with. And I'm not talking about doing it the night before the interview or the day of, I'm talking about spend a couple of days or the weekend before you're going in and do a deep dive.

  And research as much publicly available information you can get your hands on with regard to the company, their executives, the leadership team, and look at, you know, the internet is your friend. Google is your friend. Public filings are your friend. Dig into all of it and come in armed with questions that demonstrate your curiosity, demonstrate the fact that you've done homework.

  You want to come across as a thoughtful candidate who is sincerely interested, not just to get a job or to make a move, but sincerely interested in that company in a way that you can articulate with specificity, why, and as well as articulating with specificity, why you're interested in the particular role.

  So all of that requires prep and homework, and it's not something you can do in a haphazard way the day off or the night before. So proper preparation is key and you'd be surprised how many candidates even at this c-level go in unprepared and it shows I get the feedback from my clients that the candidate wasn't truly prepared, you know, it rubs them the wrong way.

  [00:36:32] Mosah: Perhaps obvious advice, but maybe not obvious enough for, for too many folks. It's not an uncommon for us to spend entire weekends working with individual clients or several weeks, if there's that much time between interviews doing exactly that, right? The internet is your friend public filings are your friend.

  I think the only thing that I would add to your answer on that question, Dimitri might be reflecting on the industry as a whole, because if someone's moving between like companies making sure that they're current and not just focused on that one company helps provide a better and more global perspective.

  [00:37:10] Dmitri: I agree

  [00:37:11] Mosah: As a search consultant, imagine you sometimes get put into situations that obviously you're trained how to handle. Sometimes you have to balance competing interests between those of your client and those of a candidate. Helping to broker, what is ultimately a win-win or triple win, I guess.

  Can you share with us a little bit about how you might do that and maybe even a story about how you've handled that in the past?

  [00:37:40] Dmitri: Sure. I mean, I think executive search consultants really earn their fees at offer time and getting deals across the finish line. So yes, we need to present great slates of candidates, shepherd them through the process and manage candidate expectations and client expectations, but where we really earn our fee is getting a candidate over the finish line. And that usually involves having to assess a number of different factors, including compensation, but not exclusive to compensation. So how do we do that?

  You have to be in close contact with both your client, the hiring company and the candidate. And as the search moves forward and is getting closer to the offer stage, you need to be really in close contact with the candidate. What happens with candidates sometimes is you think you're having deep conversations with them through the process, but you're really not because it's only when the situation becomes a real and an offer is actually on the table or is imminent that some of the true and deeper concerns that a candidate has come to the fore.

  And so you may be hearing things from your candidate for the first time, after a six-month process. And you're hearing them for the first time at offer time. So you need to try and avoid that situation of being surprised by having deeper conversations with the candidate about compensation, about deferred comp that they’d be leaving on the table.

  About if it's a relocation situation, about the family situation. You asked about a red flag, one of the red flags is if you're dealing with a senior executive making a big move that requires relocation and you're speaking with the candidate throughout the process. If that candidate doesn't bring up their spouse and doesn't discuss whether the spouse has bought in to the situation, that's a flag because you know, in a move like that, that involves a spouse and children who are in high school, spousal buy-in is incredibly important.

  And if you don't hear about the spouse's opinion throughout the process, believe me, you will hear about it post offer, and it becomes an issue. You want to be having deeper conversations with candidates as you get closer to the finished.

  [00:40:20] Mosah: Dmitri, obviously you're focused primarily on in-house legal market and the firm that you work for Major Lindsey and Africa focuses on in-house. law firm. and compliance talent.

  So you have great perspective given your tenure and that breadth of the market. Where's the legal market headed. What are some trends and some insights you might share with those listening?

  [00:40:43] Dmitri: It's interesting. The legal market is changing. Law firms are changing that's for certain. I think in a post pandemic world, we've all realized how effective and productive attorneys can be working remotely. Whether that's fully remote or some type of, you know, hybrid model of remote work.

  So I think that working remotely versus in office is a debate that both law firms and corporations and their legal departments will be having and continuing to have over the course of the next few months and years. And I'm not sure where things will land, what the equilibrium point is.

  But I do know that what we've learned over the last couple of years is legal work, legal advice, it can be very effectively and productively delivered remotely. And so having remote teams, legal teams, in-house counsel teams, and whether it's that again, it's fully remote or, you know, it's three days a week in office with some flexibility on a Monday/Friday. We're going to continue to see that and that situation will continue to evolve.

  Then I have no idea where it'll all land and like many observers, I'm curious to see how it will evolve and shift, but the shift is underway. It's almost like you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube at this point, in terms of kind of the five day a week in office workweek. I think that's in the rear-view mirror for the most part, except perhaps for the most senior legal roles in the legal department.

  [00:42:28] Mosah: Interesting. Does that impact a candidate search in their geographic reach when it comes to targeting organizations and looking for opportunities?

  [00:42:40] Dmitri: It does. It absolutely does and we're seeing it now. There are many more positions available that are fully remote. Or partially remote. And so companies that are looking to make those hires are opening up a national candidate pool for themselves.

  Company may be based in Chicago, but they're open to having the right candidate be sitting in San Diego or Atlanta or Houston or Des Moines, Iowa. And so it's about finding the right candidate with the right skill set. And the geographic location of the candidate becomes a little bit more secondary. So it opens up the candidate pool for the hiring company, for my clients.

  But from the candidate perspective, it's also beneficial because you're able to compete and vie for opportunities and companies, regardless of where you're located. So you could be sitting in New York City, but you're applying for a role in Seattle and it's a full-time role. And maybe you traveled to Seattle once a quarter, but the rest of the time you're working and you're in your home in New York City.

  So I think it's a win-win for both sides.

  [00:43:56] Mosah: As we end every episode on hiring insights, we make sure that we as a token of appreciation, make a contribution to a nonprofit in honor of our guests. And I'm wondering if there's a particular nonprofit that you might like us to support today.

  [00:44:13] Dmitri: You know, there are a number, but one of them that jumps to mind is an organization called Vitamin Angels, vitaminangels.org.

  It's an organization that provides nutritional support by way of vitamin and mineral supplementation to children in underserved communities across the world.

  [00:44:34] Mosah: We will make that contribution very worthy cause. Thank you so much Dimitri for being on today. And if someone wanted to write you a thoughtful email to let you know of their candidacy for a particular position or interest in making a move or wanted to engage the services of MLA, what's the best way to get in touch with you or with your firm.

  [00:44:44] Dmitri: Probably the best and easiest way is to look me up on LinkedIn. So just search for me, Dimitri Mastrocola. And my email address is right there on the profile. So shoot me an email. That's probably the easiest way to get in touch with me. It's my work email. That's right on the LinkedIn profile and we can set up some time to talk.

  [00:45:15] Mosah: Dimitri, we can't thank you enough for being on the episode today. Your insights and advice, both online and in today's episode are tremendously helpful to those looking for jobs and those actually hiring as well. So thank you so much for being on today.

  [00:45:33] Dmitri: You're very welcome. Thank you for having me, Mosah, it’s been a pleasure.

  [00:45:37] Richard: Thank you for joining us on Hiring Insights. Remember, you can learn more about Top Talent Advocates and listen to other episodes by visiting toptalentadvocates.org and click on the podcast. You can also email us at tta@toptalentadvocates.org

  Description text goes here

Networking, Relationship Building, and an Inside Look at the National Association of Women Lawyers

Jennifer Champlin: Networking, Relationship Building, and an Inside Look at the National Association of Women Lawyers

Jennifer (Jenny) Champlin, Director and DEI Incubator at Edward Jones and current President of the National Association of Women Lawyers (NAWL), joins us to share how to build and cultivate meaningful professional relationships. The opportunities that have presented themselves along Jenny’s career journey have been widely supported and inspired by the authentic network of people she surrounds herself with. We discuss how to effectively and efficiently manage your career and dive into why NAWL is a great resource and tool for women in the legal industry.

• How to foster an environment and relationships where you are more likely to be networked into opportunities.

• Evaluating opportunities.

• Career management and using what Jenny references as “The Job Trifecta”.

• Active job seekers: being intentional with relationships.

• Inequities in terms of compensation and the pursuit of opportunities; how can women become their best advocates.

• Building a robust network gives your resources when needed and the ability to view yourself through a different lens.

• Authentic, genuine, and mutually beneficial relationships.

• The National Association of Women Lawyers.

TOP TALENT ADVOCATES REMAINS COMITTED TO PHILANTHROPIC EFFORTS. EACH GUEST IS ASKED TO SUGGEST A NONPROFIT OF CHOICE FOR OUR SUPPORT.

• National Association of Women Lawyers

• JENNIFER CHAMPLIN TRANSCRIPT

  [00:00:00] Richard: Welcome to Hiring Insights. The podcast that provides insight into the executive hiring process and experience, whether you are a job seeker, a people leader, a recruiter, an executive coach or simply interested in talent. There is something here for you on Hiring Insights. Today's episode is presented by Top Talent Advocates, where we advocate for executive and legal talent.

  You can learn more about Top Talent Advocates, listen to other episodes and hire great talent by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and clicking on podcast. Now, here is your host for Hiring Insights, Mosah Fernandez Goodman.

  [00:00:44] Mosah: I'm joined today by Jenny Champlin, Jennifer or Jenny, works for Edward Jones as the Associate General Counsel. She's held positions at Walmart and has also worked as a practicing attorney for Crow and Dunlevy and Nixon Peabody. She's a graduate of Cornell Law School and holds a BA in English from Oklahoma State University.

  She's also the President of the National Association of Women Lawyers. If you're interested in learning about NAWL, the National Association of Women Lawyers, about how to build and cultivate meaningful professional relationships, and about how to effectively and efficiently manage your career, I suggest you listen to Jenny's insights.

  Jenny, thanks so much for joining us today. We really appreciate you taking the time and sharing your insights.

  [00:01:37] Jenny: Thank you for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.

  [00:01:40] Mosah: Our listeners, can see your bio on our transcript and know a little bit about you. You've had a really successful and varied quite honestly, just an impressive career.

  Walk us through the highlights and tell us a little bit about each of those experiences, basically how'd you get to where you are today?

  [00:01:58] Jenny: Sure. I'm happy to do so as I look back over a now 20-year legal career, which is a little bit shocking, as I say that out loud I've been very lucky to be in different environments from big law to regional law, to big in-house to mid-size in house.

  And had a wonderful opportunity to experience different substantive legal areas. When I graduated from law school, I was looking at white color criminal defense work at a big law firm, and I loved that work. And I've had the opportunity to experience commercial litigation, e-discovery, employment law.

  I've stepped out of legal to do an HR role. And now I'm in a non-legal role leading a DEI incubator, which if you'd asked me if I was going to be doing that 20 years ago, when I graduated from law school, I would've told you, you were nuts. And here I am. And it's some of the most fulfilling work I've been able to do

  [00:02:49] Mosah: Tremendous.

  So what have been some of the biggest challenges, I guess, let us into that journey. What have been some of the biggest challenges, biggest surprises that you've experienced along or route besides saying that you work for an incubator?

  [00:03:02] Jenny: Yeah, right. What does that mean? Um, you know, I think the biggest surprise is that when you go to law school and you, you're asked to think about what you want to do with your legal career, and then you go into a law firm and you focus on, this is the area where I'm gonna build my career.

  You start to think that's where you're committing for the rest of your career. And so the biggest surprise to me, is that I have been able, not only to experience different areas, both legal and non, but to build confidence in those areas. Right. You know, again, if you'd asked me when I graduated from law school, whether I was going to be an employment lawyer, I would've said, I don't think so.

  If you'd asked me if I was going to step out and do an HR role, I don't think so. So that I, I think, both the surprise and the challenges getting out of your own head. The opportunities that I've had in my career have come to me because other leaders who I've built relationships and worked with have said, have you thought about this opportunity before? I think you'd be great at it. And it's really taken someone else to say, oh, maybe, are you sure? And you take the opportunity, and you build confidence, and you succeed. And so I don't think I anticipated that. I thought I was going to do one thing. One thing only for 20 years, I was going to become an expert.

  And I don't know that I would've been satisfied doing that.

  [00:04:24] Mosah: So you raised an interesting topic about people coming to you and asking you to consider or posing new opportunities as concepts to you. That happens certainly for a lot of people, but it doesn't happen for everyone. And I'm wondering if you might share a little bit of some insight into the intentionality that people might need to take with respect to networking and helping foster the type of environment and relationships where that's more likely to happen, where someone is more likely to say to a candidate or to a professional, hey, we've seen you work in this capacity. Have you considered X, Y or Z?

  [00:05:01] Jenny: Oh gosh, that's such a good question. I don't want to suggest that I have been overly intentional with engineering the steps that my career has taken. And so that's a hard question for me to answer around if somebody wanted to be intentional with a career, how would they do it? I will tell you what has been successful for me. For me again, it's about building relationships and about building trustworthy, trusting, authentic relationships. What do I mean by that? So everybody that's been to a networking event comes armed with their business cards and you're looking for, okay, who's gonna help me develop my business?

  Who's gonna help me get that next step in my career? That sort of networking event with that sort of expectation around it doesn't feel authentic to me. And so the way that I've gone about it in my career is truly just getting to know other peers, colleagues, leaders, and saying, hey, teach me about what you do, right?

  Oh, great, that sounds amazing. How can I, in the role that I'm in today support you in the role that you have? How can I help you succeed? What does success mean to you? And I have felt that those relationships built on a sort of foundation of mutual interest, authenticity, investment in each other's success, ultimately end up where that person thinks about you even if they've moved on to another company, another role, have a stretch assignment. Oh gosh. I'm thinking about that person who invested in that relationship. Who really impressed me in that conversation or in that assignment that we worked on together. I'm gonna reach out to her when I've got that stretch assignment or that opportunity.

  [00:06:53] Mosah: As you look at the different opportunities that you've been presented with over your career, how have you evaluated them? Assuming you you've declined some and obviously have run towards others. What's that process been like? And what insight would you share with our listeners?

  [00:07:10] Jenny: Yeah. You know, I, again, I'll give you the sort of the cheeky answer, which is, you know, every time I've been approached with an opportunity, my answer has been your nuts.

  I don't know how to do that. I would not recommend that to your listeners or to others who are thinking about other opportunities. You know, I got some very good advice from a leader one time who said, as you evaluate different opportunities, the question that should be in the back of your head is, does this opportunity first of all, allow me to learn things that I don't know about in the role that I'm in today or in the career that I've built? Does it allow me to do something different? And what additional doors does it open long term? Does it open up other paths? Is it a doorway to something else? And so those are the things, when I hear about a new opportunity, whether I've sought it out, or someone approaches me with it that are in the back of my head, what am I going to learn?

  How am I going to grow? And what additional doors might this open at some point in the future?

  [00:08:12] Mosah: So someone feels like they are maybe stuck in a rut if you will, professionally or not, headed down a path that they're exceptionally passionate about something just isn't going right. Finding a new opportunity might be one option.

  But the management of one's career is a real thing, right? Something that needs to be given thought and consideration. So what advice would you give to people as they look to better quote unquote, manage their careers as someone who has seemingly done a very good job of that themselves.

  [00:08:47] Jenny: Well, thank you.

  You know, I think it starts with understanding what's important to you in a particular role or in your career. Many years ago, I started to think about this in terms of a job trifecta. And so are you doing work that you are excited to get out of bed and perform every day? And are you getting paid fairly for that work?

  You can always get paid more, but are you getting paid fairly for that work? And do you have a leader that's invested in you as an individual and your development? If you have all three, it's difficult to line all three of those things up in one opportunity. And so if you have all three, I say, you know, give it some thought, is it really time to be looking for that next opportunity?

  But if you're missing the other one or the other two, then it is okay, this may not be the right thing for me at this point in my career. And think about who is it that you want to either emulate or learn more from, or who might connect you with an opportunity that you are curious about? I recently had lunch with a former colleague who was sharing with me about a new opportunity that he had, and I really loved what he said.

  He said, you know, when I was in my prior role, I became fascinated with FinTech, right? That's a term that I'm still learning about, even though I've been in financial services for five years.

  [00:10:18] Mosah: But you're in an incubator.

  [00:10:20] Jenny: Right, right. I'm in a DEI incubator, not a FinTech incubator. Two different things. But he said, I became, you know, fascinated with FinTech.

  I know nothing about it, and it scares me. And so, as I was thinking about my next opportunity, I thought, who do I know that can help me understand a little bit more about fintech? And he reached out to this former professor or professor connection that he had and said, hey, you're in FinTech. How do I learn some more?

  And that professor said, oh, you need to go work for this company. Let me introduce you to their CEO. And that's the sort of experience, right? We all have relationships, networks, friends, peers, colleagues, who know something about something that we're curious about. Start there. Give a call and say, hey, I'm wanting to learn more about this.

  Who would be a great person to talk to? How do I learn more about something that you're invested in or that you know, a lot about, you might be surprised about where that conversation goes.

  [00:11:21] Mosah: So what advice would you give to someone who's actually looking to find that new job, they, they recognize that the trifecta that they have no longer works for them or that they only have sort of one or two components maybe.

  If they wanted to actually get active, start looking for a new opportunity, what insights either from your own personal experience or from those of people in your network, would you give to someone who wanted to be an active candidate?

  [00:11:50] Jenny: So I'll tell you what I don't, what hasn't worked first and then that'll lead me into what I think works better.

  I think it's incredibly difficult in today's world to apply for just a posting that you found on a job posting site and hope that you are going to be plucked out of the hundreds or thousands of other applicants based on what you have in your resume. It can be done. There are success stories. But I think the likelihood that that happens in today's day and age with the number of folks who are actively seeking other opportunities and all of the remote opportunities that are available now, it's really difficult.

  The best opportunities that have presented themselves in my career have come again through somebody that I knew. Somebody, I knew that I went to law school with somebody that I knew that I, that I worked with at some point in the past, somebody that I know through NAWL. So I think it starts with who do you know, who do you already know?

  And really being thoughtful around who's in my network. And is this person someone that would be willing to talk to me about what I'm interested in doing next? And I find that that advocacy, those relationships, the people who know you, the people who can introduce you, that is the fastest way I know, to help identify a new, a new opportunity.

  You know, I don't wanna suggest that if you're very diligent and you find the right posting, that you won't be successful in, in seeking that out without a preexisting relationship, but I find relationships really unlock a lot of opportunity.

  [00:13:20] Mosah: Yeah, absolutely. We counsel our clients all the time.

  You're gonna get some percentage of success out of an online posting search. You're gonna get some percentage of success out of working and networking with recruiters. But that's only a small subset of the market and there's no chance either of those are gonna create new opportunities for you. So while recruiters are great resources, and certainly if you see a job online that you're interested in.

  People hire people. And the more people that you can have those genuine relationships with, or in our case, work to advocate and network people into, I couldn't have said it any better. It's about networking and connecting with those folks.

  [00:14:09] Jenny: I think the other thing that I mostly, you said it wonderfully, but I think the other thing is that those who know you and have seen you, whether it's personally or professionally also might be able to help you brainstorm or help plant ideas that you might not have had yourself.

  An example would be it's great that you wanna go out for this type of opportunity, an HR opportunity, a DEI opportunity or a legal opportunity, but that person who knows you may also say, but have you thought about this? And it may be an issue of first impression for you, something you've never thought about, but those who know you and have had that relationship with you in the past may be able to help you think bigger and broader about what might be next for your career.

  [00:14:50] Mosah: As far as opportunities and the concepts of equality and pursuit of those opportunities. What are some observations that you have Jenny, and what are some experiences and points of interest that you might wanna point out to our listeners?

  [00:15:02] Jenny: I think getting in the ring. I think that's one of the biggest hurdles is, is being in the consideration set for the opportunities that matter, right?

  Or that pay more, or that have more responsibility. And I think there's two issues that need to be resolved. One is the sort of individual conditioning that perhaps we, as women have experienced, at least in my generation. That makes us think that we should not raise our hands unless we are 1000% confident that we have the right answer, or we are the right person for that opportunity.

  And I think that there's ways to deal with that sort of individual conditioning. And one is to surround yourself with others who are going to encourage you to push past what you think your limits are. I think the other is an institutional issue. We have an institutional issue where we have job postings and job openings, and we expect people to raise their hands for them.

  And then those that raise their hands are the ones in the consideration set. Well, there's nothing in the rules that prevents the leader who posted the role from reaching out to others and saying, I think, I can't make any promises, I don't know who's gonna end up in the talent pool, but I think you'd be great for this opportunity.

  And I would really like for you to consider. Both of those things have to happen. You have to push yourself past your limits, whether you're getting outta your own head or you're getting others to try to encourage you to push past those limits. And, or we've got to have sort of an institutional reframe where leaders are encouraging the talent that they want to be in the pool.

  To be attracted to the opportunity and to apply and to envision themselves as being successful in the role. Only then can we have those meaningful discussions about value and compensation. I am a lot more likely to see a peer or a colleague of mine and say, oh my gosh, they'd be fantastic for this role.

  You have to think about this person for this role. Oh my gosh, you haven't considered this person for this role? You have to, right? It's a lot easier for me, for some reason to advocate on behalf of someone else than it is to advocate on my own behalf. And I'm not sure why that is. And so until I can get to the same level of comfort advocating for myself that I can advocating for my friend or advocating for my peer, I can't be surprised that maybe I'm not being considered for a particular opportunity, or if I'm being considered for a particular opportunity that I'm not advocating for what I, what I'm worth in that role.

  I think the other piece of it is that if I think about law firms in particular, right, NAWL just issued its annual survey report. And I'm not surprised that we're not making measurable progress and the percent of women and equity partnerships at am law 200 firms. I'm deeply disappointed, but I've been watching the progression.

  And so the trends are not surprising. What surprises me are things like large law firm compensation committees are not going through basic sort of pay equity training or basic foundational training around the potential inequities and compensation or the compensation system. Only 38% or something like that, of law firms that responded said that they trained their compensation committees on potential inequities.

  How are we ever going to make progress? First of all, if only 38% of the largest law firms are training their compensation committees to have this conversation. Secondly, those same large law firms have big employment departments where they're giving that advice to their clients, but they're not doing it themselves.

  Right? So I do think there's opportunity on both sides here. You've gotta advocate for your value and your worth. And I will admit that I am not the best at that. I can do it for somebody else. No problem but I need to get better at even doing it for myself. The second is we need to really examine the systems that we've created that require women in particular, to raise their hand with an opportunity.

  They may not think they're the most qualified for initially. Then when it comes to compensation are we really examining our own systems to address potential inequity?

  [00:19:07] Mosah: So you've talked a lot about the benefits of having a strong and robust network. What would you say the single most important benefit of cultivating a network over your career is and should be?

  [00:19:21] Jenny: At the risk of being repetitive. I think it's that your network may see things in you that you don't see in yourself.

  And I think it can be a real confidence booster. I think the other thing is the folks who are in your network genuinely want you to succeed. I have yet to meet somebody in my network, right, or have kept somebody in my network or have cultivated relationship for someone who is hoping that I fail.

  Right? So when I made the change from my prior role in the retail industry to financial services, I know nothing about financial services. I was blown away for lack of a better term by the number of particularly women that reached out to me and said, I've been in financial services for 25 years, there is no question that is too innate or too stupid to ask me. If you are too embarrassed to ask within your organization, what is an ETF for example, which I didn't know what that was call me. Right? Let me introduce you to other women in financial services. Let me introduce you to other lawyers and financial services.

  And I had others working on my behalf to make sure that the moment I stepped foot into financial services, I felt like I had a solid foundation to understand the industry I was stepping into. I just don't know how I would've done it without a supportive, wonderful network of relationships.

  [00:20:42] Mosah: And so when you look at the types of people that you're looking to network with. Or that you might sort of find pleasure in continuing to build a relationship with what do those people look like? And then what are the types who you look to avoid?

  [00:20:57] Jenny: I'm gonna start with your second question first and I, I keep coming back to.

  [00:21:04] Mosah: Besides Yankee fans.

  [00:21:05] Jenny: Well, okay. Alright. You know, it's funny I talk a lot about unconscious bias in the role that I have, and we've got a lot of folks who immediately hear unconscious bias and think immediately about race. And that is obviously a very pertinent and relevant issue today. But I try to make the point that it's a bigger topic than just race.

  And I give the example about the fact that I'm a red Sox fan. And so if I have a Yankees fan apply for a job that I'm the leader of, I might be prone to think that that person has poor judgment, for example, and not qualified to take my role. And that's a bias that I have to conscientiously check in order to make sure that everybody's having equal opportunity.

  So this is an example I use in my day-to-day job as the bias between Red Sox and Yankees fans. But to get back to the question that you asked, I can tell you who I look to avoid building relationships with. And those are the folks who come into building the relationship that you can, you can feel it oozing from their pores that they're only looking for what they can get out of you.

  We all have a limited number of hours in the day, and we are giving of ourselves in our workplaces, in our homes, in our volunteer opportunities, and I am not interested in a relationship where it is one sided. I want to learn from that relationship every bit, as much as you want to learn from me. And it needs to be a mutually beneficial relationship, and I'm not talking about necessarily a job that's gonna end up in a career, but I am always looking to grow and develop and get better.

  And even when I'm approached by a potential mentee, for example, asking me to mentor them in their career or in my company or in a volunteer opportunity. I am always open to that relationship, but I always say I'm going to learn as much from you as you're going to learn from me. You know, let's do this together.

  So the relationships I seek to avoid are the ones where it's about developing business and developing business only and what business I can give as an in-house council, for example. Without also saying here's what I can teach you. Here's what you're gonna learn from me. Those are uncomfortable relationships for me when they're one sided.

  [00:23:25] Mosah: Fair enough. And then, so it's safe to assume that the antithesis of that is the types of relationships that you look to foster and cultivate?

  [00:23:34] Jenny: Great, I didn't answer your question.

  [00:23:36] Mosah: You took a couple shots at the Yankees, but no, you didn't.

  [00:23:40] Jenny: I sure did. I sure did. The relationships that I actively seek out are authentic relationships.

  Right. And I think I mentioned earlier, the question that I like to lead off with, tell me about what you do? Tell me about how that adds value? Tell me about how you can be successful and how, what I can do to help you be successful? What I hope the next question is, is great, how can I help you be successful?

  Right? How can we do this together? And those authentic sort of mutual investment relationships are the ones that I feel the most comfortable in. You know, I don't know that I'm teeing that up in the right way. It sounds a little selfish and I don't mean it to be, I just I've been the legal support for business partners who are, you're here to serve me.

  Yes, you're right. I'm here to help you make really sound business decisions but let me also help you understand how I'm being held accountable by my leadership. And so that maybe, that builds a deeper trusting relationship. You're more willing to share information with me that then I can help you be successful, and I can also be successful in the role that I have.

  So it's authentic, genuine, and mutually beneficial.

  [00:25:00] Mosah: So anything else for our listeners, whether they're curious about pathways and law, job seeking, ways to improve and manage their career, any, any parting thoughts?

  [00:25:12] Jenny: You know, I think we've talked about a lot of it. And for me and for my career, I can't speak to every situation for every job seeker but for me in my career, it has been about those authentic, genuine relationships. And so it's a matter of setting aside the time and the energy to think about how am I going to invest in building that authentic relationship that doesn't feel one sided, mostly to succeed in the role that I have today.

  That investment today will pay dividends long term. So I would say focusing on those, identifying those relationships in your existing professional environment, but also think about where can I invest outside of my professional environment? For me, it's the National Association of Women Lawyers and the Alpha Chi Omega organization that I belong to, those are groups that I know share similar passions to me and can widen and broaden the types of relationships that I have access to.

  [00:26:12] Mosah: I know that you're involved in a lot of things, both personally and professionally, and one of your passions is supporting and advocating for women's rights and women's causes within the workplace. And so that's led you to be highly involved in NAWL the National Association for Women Lawyers. And you've been so committed that you're actually serving as the President.

  Would you share a little bit about NAWL and what it means to you and your work with the organization?

  [00:26:41] Jenny: I sure would. Thank you for the question. So, as you said, NAWL stands for the National Association of Women Lawyers. It's a national women's bar association that was founded in 1899. So it has a wonderful, storied history of women being involved in incredible causes like women's suffrage.

  I was first introduced to NAWL in about 2010 by a leader in the Walmart legal division who was very engaged with NAWL. Walmart was a big sponsor at the time. Invited to join a planning committee for one of the major programs that NAWL puts on a year. And I just fell in love with the organization. At the time I was in Northwest Arkansas and there wasn't a huge community of women lawyers in the area, and it was an opportunity to meet women from all over the country, all devoted and passionate about the same thing.

  All incredibly talented. And so it was this incredibly welcoming community that allowed me not only to network and build wonderful relationships across the country, but to advocate for things that I am passionate about, like pay equity, like racial equity and justice, like reproductive rights and justice.

  So it's been a wonderful, fulfilling opportunity for me that I've been involved in over the last decade. And I just, I love the organization so much.

  [00:27:56] Mosah: Jenny NAWL is working on five resolutions. Would you share some more insight into what those are and, and, and a little bit about each perhaps?

  [00:28:03] Jenny: Sure. The board and the membership recently prioritized five areas where we decided we were going to focus our advocacy efforts.

  So the first is in the area of racial equity and justice. The second is in the area of reproductive rights and justice. The third is in the area of pay equity. The fourth is in the area of voting rights. And the fifth is in the area of gender-based violence. And those are in no particular order. Those are just the order in which I remember them, that we are focusing our advocacy efforts in those five areas.

  And it's the first time that NAWL has articulated those five in that way by passing board resolutions.

  [00:28:39] Mosah: Tremendous. Thank you. And so there's a lot of social justice work that's a part of NAWL obviously, and one question that our listeners would probably have: how does NAWL help the women who are its members in terms of networking and maybe even job searching.

  [00:28:54] Jenny: There are a number of ways that NAWL supports the building of relationships. I think this is something that NAWL does uniquely well, because it is a national bar association with women members from California to New York and all the way in between. Certainly that there are networking events that take place in conjunction with our in person programs that we hold about three times a year, in the spring and the summer and in the fall.

  But if you can't make it to an in-person program and many can't, the next way that I think about networking and building relationships is to get engaged with one of our affinity groups. We have over 25 affinity groups that are based on substantive areas of law. So you have women in litigation, for example, or women in financial services or women in fashion law or women revolutionizing retirement.

  And those groups put on virtual programs every so often throughout the year, each group has a different frequency or cadence, and they bring together virtually women in those substantive areas or in that career stage of life and build relationships that way. There's also a career site. So if you are actively searching for an opportunity today, there is a career center on our website where you can post your resume and be connected to other organizations that partner with NAWL that post openings.

  So there's a number of ways in which NAWL fosters those relationships.

  [00:30:19] Mosah: So if you're not a member of NAWL and you're interested in joining, what's the one-line pitch, if you will, not to minimize it, but what's the one-line pitch? Why should someone join NAWL today? If they're not currently a member and how can they do that?

  [00:30:32] Jenny: How I talk about NAWL is the welcoming community of women that are waiting to meet you and to talk with you and to build our careers together. NAWL has a dual mission. One is to advance women in the legal profession and the other is to advocate for women's rights under the law. And if either one of those things appeals to you, you belong. So please join us.

  The way that I would do it, first of all, I'm gonna joke a little bit here, but you can certainly email me or call me, and I'll tell you how to do it, but go to nawl.org and there is a membership dropdown, and you can just click on join NAWL. And we have any number of women waiting to meet you.

  [00:31:09] Mosah: You know that on every episode we support a nonprofit and so when we talked about this in our initial call about joining the podcast, I asked you what nonprofit you'd like us to support and resoundly, you said NAWL. So thank you so much for the introduction to the organization, and we'll certainly be thrilled to support it. So thank you so much.

  [00:31:29] Jenny: Thank you for having me.

  [00:31:32] Richard: Thank you for joining us on Hiring Insights. Remember, you can learn more about Top Talent Advocates and listen to other episodes by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and click on the podcast link. You can also email us @ttatoptalentadvocates.com.

  Description text goes here

How to Successfully Secure Your Next Executive Role: Search, Interview, and Negotiation Tips from a Chief Administrative Officer

Robert Jones | How to Successfully Secure Your Next Executive Role: Search, Interview, and Negotiation Tips from a Chief Administrative Officer

Robert Jones joins us on this episode to share his 42 years of experience at the top of corporate America recruiting, interviewing, and hiring executives. The current Chief Administrative Officer at Gavilon Group, LLC and prior Managing Director and Chief Administrative Officer of Enron Creditors Recovery Corp., Robert credits flexibility and adaptability to rapidly changing environments as keys to his success and encourages other aspiring leaders to follow suit.

• The ability to move quickly, to adapt to new environments and change, is key to continued success and promotional opportunities.

• Cultural fit; evaluating the final candidates.

• Putting yourself in a position to be noticed during a search. It’s a natural process IF you do the right things.

• When and how does the head of HR at a large corporation utilize search firms?

• Complexities and intricacies of bringing an executive onto a team.

• Interviewing a candidate; questions and red flags.

• When negotiating an offer remember it is total rewards, not just dollars, from executive perks to your decision rights.

• Executing your next executive career search.

• Job loss and outplacement services.

TOP TALENT ADVOCATES REMAINS COMITTED TO PHILANTHROPIC EFFORTS. EACH GUEST IS ASKED TO SUGGEST A NONPROFIT OF CHOICE FOR OUR SUPPORT.

• Open Door Mission

• ROBERT JONES TRANSCRIPT

  [00:00:00] Richard: Welcome to Hiring Insights. The podcast that provides insight into the executive hiring process and experience, whether you are a job seeker, a people leader, a recruiter, an executive coach, or simply interested in talent. There is something here for you on the Hiring Insights. Today's episode is presented by Top Talent Advocates, where we advocate for executive and legal talent.

  You can learn more about Top Talent Advocates, listen to other episodes and hire great talent by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and clicking on podcast. Here's your host for Hiring Insights, Mosah Fernandez Goodman.

  [00:00:44] Mosah: Today I'm joined by Robert Jones, who’s the Chief Administrative Officer for Gavilon Group, which is a leading commodity management firm.

  Prior to joining Gavilon in 2010, Robert was Managing Director and Chief Administrative Officer for Enron Creditors Recovery Corp. His experience includes aligning human resource initiatives to achieve company objectives and leading organizations through aggressive growth and change. Robert, welcome to Hiring Insights. Thanks so much for joining us today.

  [00:01:17] Robert: It's a pleasure to be here.

  [00:01:20] Mosah: I was hoping you would be able to tell us a little bit about your background and career trajectory.

  Tell us maybe a little bit about the positions you've held and a little bit about how you've secured new roles and some of the motivations for you over your time.

  [00:01:32] Robert: I've had two employers in my 42 years. But I started while I was in college, with Enron, which I'm sure some of your listeners have heard of. Worked at Enron for 30 years in progressive HR positions.

  Ultimately ended up being the last man standing. Chief Administrative Officer for Enron at the end of my career. So, nine of those years were in bankruptcy through restructuring and liquidation. And then the prior years, various HR positions, marketing positions with progressive responsibility along the way.

  Today I am the Chief Administrative Officer for Gavilon, which is an agricultural commodity company here in Omaha. Similar role that I had in Enron, except it's an ongoing thriving organization, responsible for human resources, marketing communications, facilities, a gamut of administrative type functions.

  You know, throughout my career I think that that's probably been one of the keys to my success is flexibility, adaptability. Environments change pretty rapidly in the professional world, and your success is often defined by your ability to adapt to that change and with a positive attitude. And I think I've done that very successfully throughout my career. From Enron I was there during the good and the bad and the ugly times.

  And the easy thing to do, would've been to leave and go find something a lot easier, but it was presented a number of challenges, a number of opportunities that led to kind of the success I'm having today at Gavilon.

  [00:03:20] Mosah: Robert, you mentioned adaptability. How has that enabled you to secure progressive roles over your career?

  Maybe shed some light for our listeners into how that's enabled you to take new opportunities and new challenges.

  [00:03:35] Robert: One of the things I give college students a lot of times, and I do discussions when we have interns coming into the office, one of the things that they could take away from my talk and that is the ability to adapt to new environments. You know, you almost gotta be a chameleon when it comes to kind of corporate America, because things change, especially in commodity type businesses with the markets. Your ability to move quickly, to adapt to new environments, to new leadership, to whatever it may be is key to continued success and promotional opportunities.

  I've seen people that struggle with that. And it generally leads to a short tenure in a role, where I develop that ability, I would say it goes back to my childhood. My dad was in the military. We moved around every two, sometimes one to three years. I don't know how many different states and countries I lived in, but it was one of those things where you had to adapt to the new environment.

  Whenever that may be. Foreign country, different languages, new locations or you wouldn't survive. I mean, it would be a miserable life. So that translated well into my professional life in being able to do that, 30 years at Enron, one employer, but I had 15 different jobs during that timeframe.

  And that started in Omaha went to Minneapolis, moved back to Omaha, moved to Houston, moved back to Omaha, moved back to Houston, back to Omaha. And my ability to do that quickly and hit the ground running was important and it kind of positioned me for, bigger and broader responsibilities because I was able to make that transition well.

  [00:05:18] Mosah: That's great. Thank you for sharing that insight. So, everyone in their career hits a wall or faces challenges that they might not have anticipated. What were yours in and how did you sort of push through and fight through those?

  [00:05:32] Robert: Well my wall was the day Enron filed for bankruptcy. My career trajectory was doing really well.

  I was advancing into senior level positions, executive level positions. Company files for bankruptcy. It created a lot of concern personally, but also organizationally. I mentioned earlier, the easy thing would have been to leave and go do something different. And I had plenty of those opportunities that were presented to myself, but I persevered, I saw the opportunity to learn.

  I saw an opportunity to make a difference. Make a bad thing better for a lot of people. I think I was successful in doing that. And that was rewarding. I mean, that was a brilliant, that was a real high sense of accomplishment that you always look for in life and you rarely have the opportunity to do, but I, I think by staying and persevering and taking all my learnings from all of my different positions I had at the company, I made a bad situation a lot better.

  And I got exposures to things that I never would have been exposed to in a normal career. Negotiating settlements with Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton and testifying and criminal trials, civil trials, bankruptcy hearings.

  [00:06:45] Mosah: So, are you recommending that someone have a similar Enron experience? Is that your recommendation?

  [00:06:50] Robert: No, I don’t know if I would recommend it, but I guess it was-I had a high sense of accomplishment because I got some things done, again, a lot of learnings. One of my philosophies throughout my career is always stay in school, keep learning and developing, and you got to own that.

  You know, the company can't give that to you. They can provide opportunities, but you as an individual have to own your own career and your own career development. And if you're not learning, then you're not living. Right, you gotta stay contemporary. At my age and my experience, I continue to learn new things every day.

  And, that's important.

  [00:07:30] Mosah: Robert I'd like for you to share some perspectives on joining a C-suite, you've been at the top of corporate America, and you've worked for private equity backed ventures, and you've seen a lot in corporate America. As a CHRO as a chief admin officer, and as a member of an executive team, I'd like you to share your perspectives about what it takes to join a C-suite, beyond the requisite qualifications. What do you look for when you're helping recruit executives to join leadership teams? And if you could share some examples from that experience over your career, that would be wonderful.

  [00:08:05] Robert: I consider myself a student of human behavior and what I always look for and not just the C-suite, but you know, mid senior level positions is cultural fit.

  Especially if you're going outside to fill a role and I filled the number of those in my career. What you want to look for is the person that's going to fit the culture of the company. And everybody that makes the final list, like you said, the requisite qualifications they have, right? It's going to be the person that will fit best with the rest of the leadership team. So, you got to know what the leadership team looks like and how it works together and be able to make sure you get that right personality in there that will gel. You can have organ rejection really easy. And I've seen that happen as well, where you get someone that's not quite the right fit and they don't last long.

  They don't survive. I mean, they've got all the qualifications in the world, MIT, Harvard, and then they struggle in kind of that team, you know executive level role. Jobs that I've had a lot of times in a lot of companies nowadays, you get player coaches.

  So, these are people that not only lead teams and lead efforts, lead departments, but they're also doers. So you want to make sure you find the right person that can do that. That's not their full-time job to do but they got to understand it.

  They got to be able to lead by example. And often you find people that just can't do it. They’re so far removed from it that they're not credible to the people that they're trying to lead. And so, you look for those things and, I mean, there's a lot of attributes that you need to be successful.

  Someone that's humble, that's a good listener, that's confident, but not arrogant. There's a lot of things that when you're going through this interview with them, you explore and you can, you can find those characteristics pretty quickly.

  [00:10:00] Mosah: Put yourself in the shoes of a candidate, looking for their next executive level role. At Top Talent, we obviously support candidates in their search and help them navigate the pathways to getting that next job. What are some of the things that you believe an individual can do to advantage themselves in a search?

  And sometimes it's even just getting noticed they may not already be on the radar screen of a head-hunting firm. How can they put themselves in the situation to get noticed?

  [00:10:30] Robert: Yeah, that's a great question. Throughout my career I think I applied for one job and that was the first job I got, and the rest of the advancement came by doing really, really good work.

  Right? And getting noticed. And it just, it's a natural process when you do that. Also about relationships and your network. Throughout my career, I've always tried to maintain really good interpersonal relationships with colleagues, subordinates, senior leadership. To get that recognition, take on those challenges, those opportunities that no one else wants to do because it's high risk, but also could be high reward if you're successful in doing those things, but volunteer for those, you know, communicate the need to educate yourself and get that attention.

  Talk to your supervisor about your aspirations, talk to their supervisor about your aspirations, get people's attention. And I tell you the thing that I think that helped me throughout my careers is doing really good work, being kind of low maintenance. That’s one of the challenges today that's different than when I grew up in my career.

  I think there's an expectation by a lot of employees about it’s kind of the company's responsibility to educate me, to develop me, to promote me. Yeah it doesn't work that way. You got to own that. I mean, the company can help give you the tools, educational assistance, but you got to own it.

  [00:11:54] Mosah: When do you like to use executive search firms?

  When is that the best route to go?

  [00:12:00] Robert: It depends on what's available to you, you don't want to limit yourself to just your network. Certain jobs that are very specialized skillsets. Let's use the CIO for example. To be able to even get to that point of requisite skills you got to go out into a firm that does that, right? That goes and does searches for IT executives so they can qualify each of the candidates ability to do the technical aspects of the job. And IT you can make a big mistake that costs you a lot of money. So, you want to make sure that they have that technical ability.

  And then once you get that, and the search firms are really good at that, they know who the best tech people are out there. Again,it’s not always the best technical person is the best leader, but you want someone that is technically competent, right? They don't have to be able to write code, but they got to understand when they're talking to someone that's writing code, what that means and how that translates to business, right? Cause they got to translate business process into technology. So, you need someone that understands that. And then you go through that process of looking for the cultural fit, the self-awareness the confidence, all of those things, where they would be a fit for the culture.

  One of the things I've seen that probably the single biggest failure when it comes to executive hires, is that cultural fit. I have met very brilliant, capable people. You look at their pedigree, they've got the best schools and the best experiences, and they were very successful in previous roles.

  But once they got to your particular culture, they crashed and burned. They just couldn't adapt. They couldn't translate all that experience and knowledge into our environment.

  [00:13:42] Mosah: So, when do you recommend that companies or organizations not use a search firm?

  [00:13:50] Robert: Well again, if you could develop a talent, you can get to where you have an heir apparent then again, but that takes time and effort.

  And that costs money too, because you sometimes have to spend a lot more money for it to have that first Lieutenant ready to go. A lot of organizations can't afford to do that, where they have that talent developed or ready to roll because you got two big kids and you can really only afford one. So, if you can develop talent, that's the best, safest, because then you eliminate the organ rejection and you have basically, you've interviewed them for the last, however many years they've been an employee to see if they will fit and can manage. If you don't have that ability, then you got to go outside. One of our commercial roles, we developed that talent, right?

  It's not necessary because we have the capability to develop the talent and then size it up and putting them in the right roles.

  [00:14:42] Mosah: Robert I was wondering if you could share some insight into the steps or process that it takes to actually get to an interview. What are some of those from online applications to being contacted by a recruiter, to being networked into an opportunity?

  What happens before an interview?

  [00:15:00 Robert: Well at the C level, it rarely comes down to someone applying for the job. In most of those cases, they're passive seekers. They’re currently gainfully employed, very successful. So, either someone internal, myself or a search firm, if you engage them, will start a dialogue.

  You as a company, want a well-defined role. The requisite skills and challenges that the position may have, and you'll engage with the candidate, you'll share with them, gauge their interest, check their willingness to relocate because in a lot of those positions, they’re rarely in the same city where the position is. And that can be an obstacle at times. So, you want to make sure that you're not wasting their time or you're not, they're not wasting our time. So, once you get through those kinds of that courting period, and you'll get to a point where you can start having discussions, sometimes you'll fly to them and I've done that, or I'll have dinner with them.

  Just to see if how serious they are about being a candidate for the role. You know it’s a courting process, right? They're interviewing you; you're interviewing them. You're deciding if it would be a good marriage, again it's not an event, it's a process. Some of the search firms have real good research departments where they pretty much know who the best in the industry is.

  And so those are good resources to go to.

  [00:16:30] Mosah: So, can you walk us through the process to actually hire an executive, help our listeners understand the complexities and intricacies of, of bringing in an executive onto a team because it's unlike other roles, right? I mean, it's not a pure tactical type of opportunity.

  It's multi-dimensional so as someone who's hired so many executives, if you could kind of demystify that for our listeners, that would be wonderful.

  [00:16:56] Robert: The best way is to develop that talent right within the organization and that minimizes your organ rejection. But that's not always an opportunity that you can explore because you don't have a lot of companies, nowadays don’t have deep benches and don't have the ability or the time to develop the talent or certain specialized skill sets.

  We recently hired a CFO, and we just didn't have someone ready. Maybe three to five years, we could develop that talent and they are great people and great abilities, but they weren't ready for that role. So, we started a search process and, a lot of times we will retain an executive search because especially if it's very specialized, and we know it's not going to be from the local market.

  The best candidates out there are passive seekers. They're not people out there looking. And these are people that are very happy in the role that they're in, and the search firms will go out, engaging in conversation with them, test the interest, hopefully, at least get to a point where I can have a conversation about the role that we're looking for. And then if successful then engage the company into that process. And normally you'll narrow it down to, two to three viable candidates. You'll bring them in for a round of interviews and we'll have five or six other executives, maybe even somebody that would report to them in an interviewing process.

  Throughout that process, I would facilitate it, start the process and end the process, you know, then we would compare notes. Everybody would have their list of pros and cons around the individual and, and we would be able to kind of come to a consensus on the right person, the right fit for the organization.

  And that's worked for us very well. Once you get to that point, then you start that background check. So, you find the candidate before you extend the offer, you do the background check, the search firms will do it for you sometimes. And a lot of cases the hiring supervisor wants to do it so they can ask more open-ended questions. Sometimes depending on the role, you may do it running through a personality test.

  To see if their personality fits the culture of the company. We've all done those in our life. How people think, how do they respond and in stressful situations, and then you just triangulate all of that information and you come down to a higher.

  [00:19:20] Mosah: Phenomenal. So you described yourself as a student of human behavior.

  What are some of the red flags that you look for when you're interviewing or sourcing a candidate? What are some of those things that jump out at you as something that might force that organ rejection or that lack of cultural fit?

  [00:19:37] Robert: You do a lot of situational questions, you you'll ask them how they would solve a particular problem, an interpersonal problem with members on the staff. And you can kind of fill them out from that standpoint, if they have that ability to solve those types of problems. The arrogancy can come out pretty quickly. Someone that's been in a C-suite before or a senior level, you look for that word of I. I did this versus the team, which you can spot it. And we've all seen people, we've been at dinner parties. You could see it, if you pay attention and you ask the right questions, it'll surface.

  [00:20:20] Mosah: Robert, what are some of the questions if someone was sitting across the table from you, they could expect to be asked and then what are you really looking for in those answers?

  [00:20:29] Robert: Well, I always start my questions to walk me through your career and all the changes you've had. And why did you leave? And that gives me some insight to that person's ability.

  So that always helps me just get kind of a foundation. I look for those kind of self-starters, those people that take ownership in how they have progressed. And again, a lot of that I think is through good work, but it's one of those things that you can see. I mean, I can, because I can see how, how the person reacts to the types of questions.

  I always try to get them situational questions around here's this problem, how would you solve it? Kind of an in-basket exercise, a process. It depends on the job, you know, you may ask them, walk me through the steps of how you would hire an employee, what would you do in the first hundred days of your job? And what I look for in that case, depending on if it's a senior position is if they just go in and say, I'm just going to impose my way. I'm going to do it the way I've always done it versus listening, studying and talking to people, and then you take all that data and that information, and then try to steer the organization in a way, because a lot of times people just want to take the culture that they came from, then impose it on someone else which may or may not work.

  You don't know that. But I look for those kinds of things and then generally comes out

  [00:22:01] Mosah: If you're an executive level candidate and you are fortunate enough to secure a role, how would you advise someone to evaluate an offer and maybe even negotiate that offer?

  [00:22:17] Robert: Well, I always tell people, do the pro con list, right?

  And some of it is monetary and some of it's opportunity. It's always hard for people. It's sometimes helpful to have a firm like yours that sees a lot of different data points. And can triangulate where the market is on a certain role. Sometimes a company has some limitations because there's equity issues and compression issues.

  And, but it is taking in all those data points. And again, you're putting some value, you know, people look at nowadays total rewards. It's not just your paycheck anymore. It's your benefit package, your executive perks, depending on the role it is, what kind of decision rights you have. What their expectation is so that you can head off any kinds of problems that you may have, especially in those most senior levels, like a CEO. Having the well-defined decision rights and their approval limits and stuff and what where it has to go to the board versus the decisions that they can make. But coming in as the candidate, you want to know those things.

  Some of the questions I've asked when I came into my role, they did a silent search and I got contacted by a search firm and I started the process, about a four-month process to get to this seat.

  But I had to go through that process, right? And had to be vetted. But I wanted to know what my decision rights were, because the person ahead of me had been terminated. And there clearly were some problems with the department it didn't have the rapport that it needed to have in the organization. It was seen more as an obstacle than an enabler for the business.

  So, I wanted to know, could I change out the staff if I felt I needed to? Could I add people if I felt like I needed to? Could I change certain policies or procedures that we were doing that may have been the obstacle for the business And I got clear answers to each of those. At that point, it wasn't about the money, cause the money generally follows the role. It was about what rights I would have to manage and to be successful in the business because I knew if I couldn't do any of those things, I'd follow the same fate as the person that I replaced.

  So, I was able to get agreement and I slowly, basically changed out the staff. You know, setting expectations for the team. This is where we're going. I'm here for a reason, because there was a lot of we've always done it this way and why can't we just keep doing that away?

  Well, if that was the case, I wouldn't be here. It wasn't successful for the organization to continue down that course, so they brought someone in new with a different way of thinking and some people make that transition. Some people, you cleared, set up the expectations with them and then others, self-selected and said, look, I don't want to be a part of that. This is the way I always like to do things and I don't want to do it differently. And the others you had to replace and gave them an opportunity to be successful and they chose a different course. So, you had to make a decision.

  [00:25:13] Mosah: You still didn't tell me how to negotiate against you.

  [00:25:18] Robert: Well, you use the word down method, that I know. Obviously, negotiating is having your facts, right? The money is, it's important. It's got to be there, but it's all the other things that make it successful. You don't want it being very high paid and then be miserable at work. Right?

  [00:25:42] Mosah: Or not able to perform?

  [00:25:43] Robert: Exactly or put it in a position where you can't be successful. The more money you make, the higher the expectation.

  So, keep that in mind.

  [00:25:52] Mosah: Robert, if you were looking for your next executive role today, what would you do?

  [00:25:58] Robert: Well, a lot of it's around your passions, right? What do you want to do? A lot of times you do get to that kind of C level. You've already made the decision, what track you're taking.

  If it's, human resources, commercial, finance, HR, whatever it may be. So, then that's kind of defined for you but it's about your passion on what you want to do. Early on in my career, I decided I liked human resources but I had other opportunities I could have pursued. But I chose that path, right?

  I just said, I really like the variety of the job. Every day's a new even if you had the same problem, you're dealing with different personalities. So, you got to approach it from different angles. I developed kind of a passion and it was a challenge. And I went back and got my master's in human resources because I wanted to specialize in that.

  And I would say that, you know, even to this day, if that's important find out what you're passionate about. Is it a startup kind of opportunity? Do you want to develop a team? Do you want to develop a company? Do you want to launch a company? You answer those questions and then I think that'll help you understand.

  I want to go work for a company that maybe it’s in an immature state, but I want to help them get to that next point in time.

  [00:27:12] Mosah: So, what specific steps would you go through Robert to be able to execute that search? And one of those tactical elements that you would look to.

  [00:27:22] Robert: Well, and again, you can utilize your network. Ask those questions about what those things are that you look for but talk to someone like yourself that can help them kind of get to the funnel. Because it's overwhelming.

  If you think about what's out there, but ask the right questions to figure out what you want to do, what do you be passionate about? And how do you want us to move forward? It depends on where they're at in their career. And, on my stage, I get great gratification on developing talent and creating a legacy. To say okay, these are the people that I helped develop and place in the organization, whether it be part of my team or someone, outside of that thing.

  But once that's not there for me here, what's that next opportunity somewhere else? And talking to someone like yourself and says hey, this company over here was like the company you were with, but they're 10 years ago. Right? You can help them get to where they want to be with that experience.

  And you know, they'd be a good fit. Good marriage. Let's open the dial.

  [00:28:26] Mosah: Robert sometimes things don't work out. Reorganizations, poor performance, economy turns. What advice would you give to someone who's recently lost their job?

  [00:28:37] Robert: Well, it's a good question and it's emotional, right? It depending on how long a person's been with the employer. I know from an employer's perspective; I always try to treat people with that kind of dignity and respect as they go out. We help them with finding tools and, and a lot of times we'll use outplacement services to help that transition.

  I mean, it's one thing, it's the right thing to do. It's something the organization, like Gavilon, is part of that employment proposition. You know, when those things don't work out you treat people with that care while they're an employee. And then when they're transitioning, you treat them the same way.

  So, people feel like, okay, if the worst thing happens to me, I lose my job. They'll help me make that transition. Sometimes it's no fault of their own, right? Obviously if it's-they're terminated for violating policy and all that sort of stuff, or stealing, whatever it may be, they're on their own.

  But those people that just couldn't make the transition to a new model or, become redundant because of you modernize or you go through some bad economic times and I'd been involved in all of those throughout my career, and utilizing outplacement is, always been a great tool and to help that individual transition. And it also helps the organization that, that currently exists. It's sticking around. There's less survivor guilt when they know that we're doing something to help the person. I work for a company that cares, even if you're no longer an employee.

  It kind of pays for itself, right? Because of the goodwill you get with current staff, but also mitigation of any kind of legal expenses. The challenge that a lot of people have in making that transition is depending on how long they’ve been working, right? Like myself, if I had to go apply for a new job, would I know how to do it? I would, because I do this for a living, but the average person would say if they were in an accounting role, they may have applied for a job 20 years ago, 15 years ago.

  They don't know how to do that, today. Right? Because it's evolved, you know, with technology, LinkedIn, all of that stuff. And you know how people search for jobs, the normal roles that, that get filled is key words, right? It's your LinkedIn profile and everybody's using that to search. So, you look for the highest number of matches that you can find in someone's LinkedIn profile and they make the short list. And then you do some phone screening and so forth like that. So, it's packaging that person and understanding if they're quite capable and got a lot of talent to offer, but they just don't know how to do it in today's environment. It's not the way you did it 10 years ago or argue five years ago.

  And you'll probably tell me 90 days ago, because you know how companies are searching today. It's evolved quite a bit and its high technology. It's high packaging a person, making sure that their LinkedIn profile, which is the resume, is going to hit the mark when it comes to electronic searches and algorithms.

  Again, that's the first step employers use. And then the second step is that phone screen. And then, you know, depending on how that goes, then you can get a in face interview. And each one of those is different process of having someone to help you get through each of those phases. Because I always tell people if you're getting interviews, your resumes okay.

  But if you're not getting the job after you've been interviewed and you're like, oh yeah, I've had like five interviews and I haven't gotten an offer yet and I'm thinking it's gotta be my resume. And I go, no, it's not your resume. Your resume is getting you the interviews. And, you're getting through the phone screenings, the fact that you haven't been able to land the job is we got to work on interview skills. Repetition going through doing video interviews, recording those interviews. Playing back the interviews for the individual will help prepare them for, what they can expect in an actual job interview.

  [00:32:29] Mosah: So maybe in just a few words, how would you summarize your advice to an executive undergoing a job search?

  [00:32:38] Robert: I would utilize your network. I mean, throughout your career, if you've made it to that executive level, you should have a pretty big Rolodex or outlook the card. I know you still use Rolodexes. But utilize that network. Engage in lunches and it may not be that they have something, but they know someone that does have something because that pays dividends.

  Somebody that can vouch for you and say, hey, this guy is a really good guy. You should talk to him. Having an advocate, whether it be a prior mentor or a firm like yours that can help open some doors for you is really, really important. You’ve got to be perseverant and you just can't get the audience if don’t have someone that can help you do that, whether it be at your network or someone like yourself.

  [00:33:31] Mosah: Robert Gavilon’s a dynamic fast-growing company, really great place to work. How can someone let you know they're interested in joining Gavilon?

  [00:33:40] Robert: Go to the gavilon.com website and there's a section up in the upper right corner on our positions. So, we give you a profile of each of the roles, brief job description, as well as what the company has to offer from benefits, comp perspective. So that's the first place I would encourage applicants to go, and you could respond online.

  [00:34:01] Mosah: Robert one thing we do for every guest on this show is make a contribution to a nonprofit of their choice. I know you'd love to make the contribution to the University of Iowa, but I'm going to forbid that. Who should we be making a contribution to?

  [00:34:17] Robert: Locally, the Open Door Mission. It's always been an area that we focused on at Gavilon, especially in light of what we do. We provide the raw material to make the food. So it's important we, as a company, support that cause so Open Door Mission here locally, would be my choice.

  [00:34:39] Mosah: Thanks so much for joining us today.

  Robert really appreciate all the insights and tips and tricks, and really can't thank you enough for being on the show. So thanks so much.

  [00:34:48] Robert: Glad to do it. Thank you.

  [00:34:51] Richard: Thank you for joining us on Hiring Insights. Remember, you can learn more about Top Talent Advocates and listen to other episodes by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and click on the podcast link.

  You can also email us at tta@toptalentadvocates.com.

  Description text goes here

Non-Linear Career Paths and Building Executive Teams: Insights from a Chief Legal Officer

Matt Miller | Non-Linear Career Paths and Building Executive Teams: Insights from a Chief Legal Officer

Matt Miller, a seasoned technology lawyer and executive, is the Chief Legal Officer at Uptake, an industrial artificial intelligence software company. His past experience includes General Counsel at Bark and Green Thumb Industries, Deputy General Counsel at Groupon, law firm partner and private practice owner. Matt shares lessons learned from his recent job searches, things to consider when undertaking a job search and how as an executive, he looks to hire and build his teams.

• General Counsel to Chief Legal Officer.

• Marketing and networking yourself into opportunities.

• Truths and fallacies of the job search process.

• Three significant qualities to look for when building a team.

• How can you distinguish yourself during the interview process?

• Best practices when networking.

• Leveraging recruiters in the legal world.

• When an opportunity for a career move arises, is it the right time to move on?

• Compensation; where it really ranks.

• Loyalty in 2022

TOP TALENT ADVOCATES REMAINS COMITTED TO PHILANTHROPIC EFFORTS. EACH GUEST IS ASKED TO SUGGEST A NONPROFIT OF CHOICE FOR OUR SUPPORT.

• Thresholds

• MATT MILLER TRANSCRIPT

  [00:00:00] Richard: Welcome to Hiring Insights. The podcast that provides insight into the executive hiring process and experience, whether you are a job seeker, a people leader, a recruiter, an executive coach or simply interested in talent. There is something here for you on the Hiring Insights. Today's episode is presented by Top Talent Advocates, where we advocate for executive and legal talent.

  You can learn more about Top Talent, listen to other episodes and hire great talent by visiting www.toptalentadvocates.com and clicking on podcast. Now here's your host for Hiring Insights, Mosah Fernandez Goodman.

  [00:00:44] Mosah: On this episode, I'm joined by Matt Miller, who's a chief legal officer in Chicago. Matt will share with us lessons learned from his recent job searches, things to consider when undertaking a job search and how as an executive, he looks to hire and build his teams. Matt, I can't tell you how happy I am to have you on the show today.

  I've been impressed by your background and getting to know you over the last year or two, for those of us who might not necessarily be familiar with you or your career path, would you be willing to share how you got to where you are today, some of the things that motivated you to get there, and just give us a brief background on yourself.

  [00:01:27] Matt: Happy to do that one, thank you for having me. I was flattered to have the ask for my first podcast episode. I feel like that should be celebrated somehow in some way, and I'll figure out a way to do that this weekend.

  I have been practicing law since 1996. I have practiced in that time in just about every way you can practice. I started at a big firm in big law, general law. I went from there to a smaller shop, a litigation firm. I have had my own firm three separate times. I have worked in a mid-size Chicago full-service firm called Much Shelist. I've been in house now since 2011.

  I started at Groupon, I had a couple other opportunities along the way. And then most recently was at Bark, a company that went public by way of SPAC. And now I'm currently the Chief Legal Officer at Uptake Technologies.

  [00:02:16] Mosah: Matt, I've gotten to know you over the last several years as both a friend and someone who I've helped work with during their search. I'm wondering if you might shed a little bit of light on our backgrounds so that listeners know the context of how we came to know each other.

  [00:02:30] Matt: Sure. You know, in part of my networking and when I was trying to figure out what to do with my life, I had reached out to a recruiter, legal recruiter who was really kind with her time.

  Really helpful with advice but couldn't help directly, but just gave good overall career and life advice and included in that was you should talk to this guy, Mosah Goodman, at Top Talent Advocates. So I did, I reached out to you. I remember you actually thinking, I think your first response was how'd you get this email, something like that.

  How'd you get this as people are usually referred to me and I had to explain that, but it was a great call, and you were explaining to me what you were trying to do. Your analogy of a sports agent for executives. And I thought that's exactly what I need. This is what I've been looking for the past number of months.

  And so I was really happy to have that introduction, but at the same time, I don't pretend otherwise, I think I can be a difficult client sometimes for someone in that view, in that I have an active network. I know what I want to do. I know how I want it to be. I'm not necessarily going to follow the usual customs and ways of doing things.

  And you were okay with all that. You know, we were able to customize as I needed your help. I want your advice, I need your guidance. How do I make my paper better? My resume, my cover letters. How do I prepare for this interview? How do I handle this question? How do I deal with this thing in my background, or and then when I was leaving Bark.

  To go to Uptake after less than a year of Bark, talking that through with you, how do I handle this and how do I manage the messaging? And so you provided that for me. And you also helped prop me up at times when I was feeling down on I'm not going to get anything, I'm going to be a retired lawyer and I'm going to do something non-law and you would prop me up on we'll find something, or, what about this opportunity?

  Or have you seen this, or have you talked to this person? Did you reach out to this contact of yours yet? And so it's hard to put a price on that. Although of course you do, but it's one of those things where it's like everybody should do it. And when I talk to people who are looking at it, I refer them to you, and this is not a paid advertisement and you didn't ask for any of this, but it is truly what I think.

  And people do reach out to me from LinkedIn or from other things and say, hey, can I talk with you about your job search or your journey or how you got there? And I do, and always included in those conversations is, and you should talk to this guy, Mosah.

  [00:04:49] Mosah: Can you share with us a little bit about your role at Uptake and maybe a little bit about the company.

  [00:04:53] Matt: I'm really happy to be at Uptake. I truly love what I do and who I'm doing it with. We are a tech company, so coming back to Uptake, put me back in the tech world, which is what Groupon was, and that was my first in-house role. And I really enjoy the tech space generally, and the people that it attracts. Uptake is an industrial analytics company.

  We do sort of artificial intelligence, machine learning and help industries understand and better use their data, which can help them save money, save time, reduce carbon footprint. The opportunities here are positive. And so that also was important to me. As Chief Legal Officer at Uptake, I have a seat at the proverbial table.

  I am one of the executive leaders there. I really have a great group of executives that I work with. That's what makes it all worthwhile, right? We have this great leadership team. We've got great talent throughout the company. Really smart people in a phenomenal culture that has survived and thrived even during the strange pandemic days.

  That's the 30/45 second overview who we are, what we do and what I do. I mean, the legal issues cross everything you might think employment, regulatory, privacy, contract, commercial, you name it we have it. And the industry is a hot industry and AI was science fiction 15 years ago, and now I'm working in it.

  So that's pretty cool.

  [00:06:15] Mosah: So Matt you've recently switched jobs at the time of this recording. And you've now landed as the Chief Legal Officer at Uptake. Can you tell us about the last few years of your career and sort of how you got to where you are today?

  [00:06:30] Matt: So as I was sort of reviewing my circuitous background, I had mentioned that I was at a point where I started exploring general counsel opportunities. This is in 2018/2019, thereabouts. Those opportunities are hard to find, right? Every company has one and it's not easy to find your first. Sort of like a head coaching job at a professional sport. It's hard to find your first, once you find your first, maybe you can get your second and third, but that first one's tough.

  So I started searching and networking and doing all I can to find an opportunity and that landed me at a company called Bark. And that is an e-commerce company serving dogs. And at the time the company was beginning to go public by way of SPAC. Which I did. They're based in New York, I'm here in Chicago. And while I was working there, I had an opportunity and had been contacted by Uptake Technologies about an opportunity to come back, to work in the ecosystem.

  That's my term, the ecosystem of the companies founded by Brad Keywell and others. Brought me back to sorta to the same address at 600 west Chicago, back working with Brad and would keep me in Chicago. So that was an opportunity. That to me was one I was not going to pass up and, and that's where I've been since September of 21.

  [00:07:48] Mosah: Can you tell us a little bit about those jobs searches and maybe focusing specifically on what you did to market or network yourself into those different opportunities?

  [00:07:58] Matt: Sure. It's a stressful process and there's a lot of, for me anyway, was a lot of trial and error, maybe more error than not, but that's just sort of the process, because there are sort of phases that you go through.

  Panic, what am I going to do? Maybe I just should go be a bartender. I can't find work. And maybe this law thing is just not going to work out. And all my different choices were going to be a dead end. Those thoughts were real. And anybody listening to this who's going through that process, I mean, those are very real thoughts and very normal.

  And I think people who are searching for a job, all experience it. So what I tell people having come out of that myself is you do have to be patient, as hard as that might be, because something will come your way. That sounds more passive than it actually is. You will find something that will work for you. Whether it's a long-term solution or just something to mine some time, while I try to find something else, you will find that opportunity.

  It was a lot of networking for me, and that meant being very active. On LinkedIn, not just posting, although I was doing more of that, but also watching what was happening in the legal community. Who was leaving a general council job or where what companies were maybe spinning off new subsidiaries.

  And then looking at job listings on LinkedIn, on other email servers, on any source I could find. And then taking that information and if I saw a company looking for general counsel, then going to LinkedIn and finding out who do I know there? Do I know anybody or do I know somebody who might know somebody there so I can get an introduction, find out more about the opportunity.

  If it seems like a good one, then obviously it's nice to have that reference. If you can have somebody, you know, putting in a good word for you. I was very active in that, doing that sort of work. I reached out to some recruiters along the way, would share my resume with people who influenced me along my career. I let them know that I was looking. Because the people that don't know, they can't help. You'd be surprised at how willing people are to help if only they know you actually want the help Which does mean swallowing a little bit of pride and, you know, and talk about wherever you are in your journey. So, in a nutshell really, that's what it was for me.

  I describe it, I see it in my mind as I ignited my network. Like the neural connections were working and lights were going off and people were connecting, and people wanted to help. I was helping them help me and a big part of my days were spent working in that network, interviewing and pursuing opportunities and being as active as I could in that regard.

  [00:10:23] Mosah: You talk about your network. Did you grow your network during your search and were you meeting new people and expanding it? Because a lot of the work that I do with candidates is helping broker and network new introductions to folks who might be of assistance. And you never know where that sort of magic bullet is going to come from.

  But can you share a little bit about how you might've grown your network?

  [00:10:46] Matt: I mean, I mostly relied on my network as, as it was, but I absolutely grew it. I mean, I met you through that process. I didn't know who you were. You didn't know who I was, but you know, I had reached out to a recruiter. I don't remember how we were connected on LinkedIn.

  I don't know how or why I had reached out to her, and she connected me to you and you and I had a good conversation. And, you know, you were incredibly helpful for me, a great sounding board as I went through that process. But I was really more focused on my network working. And then through that, of course they would introduce you to people or opportunities.

  And so your network would grow that way. But I did try growing my network in ways that in hindsight for me, weren't right. Because I think the key takeaway of all of it for me and that I would tell folks, listening or people who call me for advice individually, is you have to be natural to yourself. Some of the advice I got from some people was join this group, you know, and go here and attend their meetings.

  I'm not a joiner. It's just, you know, never a student council guy, it's just not my thing. But for some people it's highly valuable and has helped to find their career. But I tried it and I attended some meetings and it was largely a waste of my time, and connections I made there weren't natural, so they didn't stick. Right?

  I wasn't meeting people in a way that was natural to me. So that was not a good way for me to grow my network. I would grow it by someone like yourself or others, who I was talking to, who either knew or met and connected with. An introduction being made that way I would take whether it was for an opportunity or if they knew of an opportunity. That was helpful.

  Because if I got an introduction to somebody, I didn't know, so a new network connection from somebody who we both know and respected, that's a natural connection and that really worked. But the other thing that really surprised me is there were people who I didn't know, would step up and go to bat for me who did, and there are people who I thought, God, this person is going to be incredibly helpful and they weren't.

  Sort of the same, less than I had when I was starting my own law firm and trying to generate businesses, you'll be surprised, which is why you have to let people know you're looking. Because you're going to be surprised that the person you worked with 10 years ago or you were in law school with however many years ago, is going to actually be incredibly helpful and connect you with with people, an opportunity.

  [00:13:00] Mosah: Matt it sounds like you were your own best advocate in helping go out and network and let people know that you were interested and excited about what opportunities might be out there. How much time did you spend networking? If you had to allocate sort of a percentage of the pie, if you will, to the amount of time you would spend contacting recruiters or networking, or simply applying online. Can you give some insight into both what you found to be most successful and how you kind of allocated your time? Because that's everyone's most precious commodity.

  [00:13:34] Matt: Yeah. I spent probably too much time on it and some of the advice I received, which was good advice, that I did not follow was don't spend all day, every day on this it'll drive you crazy.

  Doing it will really play mind tricks with you. You’re going to be sending out resumes and talking to people and you're not going to be getting every opportunity. Maybe you don't get any interviews for some period of time, but I had a hard time resisting the allure of letting me do it. One, I like it. I enjoy it.

  I like talking to, meeting with people and seeing opportunities and throwing my hat in the ring and seeing if I can get an interview and landing off, right? There's something about that, that I enjoy, but I spent too much time on it to be honest. And I think anybody listening to this is also probably going to spend too much time on it because how do you not? You're trying to define your career.

  The way I balanced it a little bit is I also, because I wasn't doing anything for a period of time, I started a law firm again. Not hard to do these days, right? I mean, I've got a virtual office, I set up an address and I started doing some work. And so that kept me a little busy.

  But my number one priority was I want to find something and no one is going to find it for me, or choose your expression, you're your own CEO or believe in yourself or advocate for yourself.

  Choose your pet. Choose your adventure. Whatever it is. Nobody's going to find that for you. So it was pretty all consuming. I was worried about the process. I was stressed about the process. It was incredibly stressful to figure out what am I going to do? I got to find something.

  [00:14:57] Mosah: So let let's talk about how you got started in your search.

  Often when I'm working with clients or candidate. We start with some form of goal-setting, but then we quickly move into developing the tools, right? LinkedIn, cover letter, resume, job search strategy with candidates. And so can you share a little bit of light on how you did that? And if that process was helpful to helping you be more efficient in your search, the value of those tools, as it worked to either clarify in your own mind or in the minds of those that you were networking with.

  What you were looking for and really what you brought to this?

  [00:15:34] Matt: I mean, the first thing I did was take a breather, which I think is important. And I would advocate to anybody who's in the position to do that, whether it's for a couple of weeks or a couple of months, you don't have those opportunities all that often.

  And if you can take it, you should do it and reset. And for me, that was important in particular because as I mentioned, I'd taken an opportunity that just wasn't a good fit for me and I just needed to reset. So that was the first thing reset, recalibrate, what are my goals? What do I really want to be doing?

  And that was important in the beginning. I think my approach was I'm going to find opportunities. I'm going to apply to them and something's going to happen. I learned the fallacy of that pretty quickly, right? I mean, you send things out, you don't even hear back and you don't know why, because on paper you think, gosh, I think I'm pitch perfect for this, this should be great. And so I didn't really form a strategy until probably, until I got introduced to you and some others around that same time. Okay, you got to really think about a modern resume and how do they work and also web crawlers, which is what all the recruiters now use. How do you make sure your resume is going to answer the things and changing it based on different jobs you're going to apply for, not the guts of it, but there are ways to set up your resume.

  So you've got, I think for me, I had set up a skill or a skills and qualifications. I can't remember the exact title, but some subject at the top, which had maybe 12 keywords, that made sense when you were reading it, wasn't just key words that like a bot would read and it made sense. But I might adjust it depending on what I'm applying for.

  If it was an international job I might've put on there, you know, international experience, if it was a job that was going to be heavily focused in a consumer facing industry, I might add that up there. So I started to develop that strategy of make sure your resume is individualized, but not so much that you're spending hours each time you apply for a job because you're going to run out of time. So structuring it in a way, that the body stays the same, but you have some things you can play with. Leverage you can pull for different applications and same with a cover letter, right? Write a cover letter that's got a couple of sentences that maybe you change each time.

  That became very important to me. And then I started to define things that also matter to me, I wasn't going to move from Chicago. That mattered to me and I had to stay true to that. Remote would have been fine, but so there were certain things that you just had to be true to. And as I was targeting opportunities, I would just keep those front of mind so that I was pursuing things intentionally. Because also I think when you're interviewing with a place, if it's not genuine, it's probably going to show.

  And so I think that's what I did was trying to tailor my documents, but write them in a way that I wasn't starting over each time, but that they could be customized pretty simply. And also being, having in mind-front of my mind, what are the things that are going to matter to me, trying to decide does title matter?

  Will I accept a deputy general counsel or an associate general counsel position for the right opportunity at the right company? Am I going for title, am I going for opportunity? So those are the things you have to keep in mind as you're looking at opportunity.

  [00:18:31] Mosah: So what surprised you about your search?

  Maybe some things that didn't go as planned. I know you mentioned that some people were more or less helpful than you would have anticipated, but can you give us those moments where you were pleasantly or unpleasantly surprised with part of the search?

  [00:18:46] Matt: Yeah. I'm going to start with a pleasantly because why not start on the good notes and it's really meaningful to me.

  I was amazed, pleasantly surprised I guess, at the number of people who really did the help and were people who, you know, I hadn't talked to some in many years and they were not just saying, sure, if I hear of anything I'll let you know. But actively helping me and connecting me with their networker or making introductions for me.

  You were passing opportunities along to me and that was amazing. And when you're in that stressful position of what am I going to do next to know that even though you might feel like you might have to just be done doing what you do for a career, people actually think highly of you and are going to try to help you. It was definitely a great surprise and a huge benefit, and frankly, necessary to the process because the confidence gets shot.

  So that's what it was for me. I'm forever thankful for the folks who helped me along the way. And I think they know who they are.

  [00:19:40] Mosah: Thanks, Matt. And so what were some of the thing that might not have gone exactly as you had planned or it might not have been as positive experience during the search?

  [00:19:49] Matt: To the downside.

  I'm amazed at the number of people who just don't respond to candidates. Even if you go through the process and have interviews, even a second round of interviews and they have no idea why maybe you're not selected and that doesn't help anybody because you're not learning. So that surprised me.

  Maybe it shouldn't have, maybe that was naive of me going in. And then I pretty quickly learned it is a little bit of every man and every woman for themselves in the job searching process. You got to get used to rejection because you're going to be rejected many times, even for things that you think you were perfect for, or maybe you'll even think you're better than the person who you end up seeing lands the job and you know, better being subjective.

  Maybe not the best word choice there, but the idea is conveyed. That is deflating, right? You send out resumes, even maybe you have a connection and a network and you get an introduction and you apply, you interview and you don't get it, that happens once. Okay. But it happens twice, three times, four times, who knows how many times, it can really discourage you.

  It's hard to keep going, but you do have to keep going. You're going to have opportunities where you're going to, or I did anyway, you'll have an interview. It'll feel really like it went well and you'll then be told probably directly through a recruiter, probably not even directly from the opportunity the employer had sent themselves, that you're not selected or you're not going to go through, and you don't know why.

  And so, you don't have an opportunity to learn or grow. You've got to guess. And so that was also discouraging and a less than pleasant part of the experience I would say. But the main thing is rejections hard. If you're looking at a job at a certain level, at the levels I was looking, you have competence, you believe you're good at what you do.You like to think you're good at what you do and you get knocked down because you know, there's a lot of no, tons of silence. That's no fun either. So that, to me, that's the biggest negative is the rejection and the ghosting.

  [00:21:44] Mosah: You talked a little bit about wanting to have a positive impact on the teams that you're a part of and the teams that you work with.

  I'd like to gain your perspective on the other side of the hiring table, if you will, and talk a little bit about how you view candidates and how you view the composition of a team and how you fill the gaps on your team. So, when you and your peers are hiring your teams, as a member of the C-suite, what are, if you could, the three most significant qualities or experiences that you're looking for in candidates? What are those things that really jump out at you as necessary components to help building and rounding out teams?

  [00:22:26] Matt: Sure. Great question. And you know, my answers are all going to be through the lens though. I've been in the startup world since I've been working for companies from Groupon to when I was in the cannabis company to Bark, to now Uptake, that's the prism through which I see it.

  And what I think people are looking for when they're hiring in those environments is individuals who have a broad background. Who have tried different things, done different things. Because you're going to move really fast. When you come into a high-growth environment to startup environment or any high growth environment, you're going to move really fast and they're going to be opportunities to grow and do new things and get outside of your comfort zone.

  And so you're looking for that breadth of experience, the willingness to try things and something that will show that this person, this candidate can succeed in an environment where the job might change and it might change quickly. And there might be opportunities to change with growth. If they're willing to try something new and they believe that they can do it, I think that's one thing you're definitely looking for.

  You're also looking for people who will come in and be the proverbial good team player. You don't all have to be best friends. You don't have to be friends necessarily. I mean, that's a different concept when you're working, but you have to be able to work well together.

  You have to trust and respect the people you're working with and so that everybody has a voice, so that all ideas can be heard because that's the only way progress happens. If you have somebody who comes in and they're going to shut down all their voices and think that only their way is the right way, that prevents progress, that prevents growth for the company that prevents growth for individuals.

  And that just makes it an unpleasant working experience. And we all spend too much time at work to have to deal with that. I think that those are the two things I would emphasize the most sort of breadth of experience, or at least a demonstrated ability to do that. And somebody who you believe in. It's art, not science, I think is going to be a good team player.

  It will be additive to what you're doing.

  [00:24:25] Mosah: How can a candidate distinguish themselves during the recruiting process or how can they get noticed? What gets your attention? And I think I'm curious because you interview both lawyers and non-lawyers to join a company. Can you talk about it just generally from a candidate’s perspective, what gets your attention?

  How can someone distinguish themselves in helping join an organization that you're a part of leading?

  [00:24:49] Matt: I do of course candidly interview more lawyers than non-lawyers, but I have over time helped people with their interviews. And especially when departments that work closely with legal, that want the legal team or representatives to interview their candidates for me, I am looking for you know, how does somebody distinguish themselves? One, is be yourself and be candid and comfortable with who you are. Don't try to be what you think the interviews are looking for because one, your guess is probably going to be wrong. You're going to interview with different people who bring different personalities to the table.

  So, I want somebody who's coming and they're bringing their whole genuine self to the process. I like the conversations to be natural and yes, we're going to cover a resume, but if we're not covering the resume and instead, we're talking about that summer, you spent as a longshoreman off in Alaska, that's also awesome. I want to hear about that. I want to know those experiences. Not that we're not going to talk about the guts of what the job is and what you're expected to do. But I want to know who is this person that we're talking to that’s going to come and join our team. Are they going to help us professionally with whatever it is they're being tasked to do?

  And also, are they, is this going to be somebody who's going to add to the personality of what we're doing? Our culture, everybody talks about culture. It's this, what is culture? However you define it at the end of the day, it's the sum of the parts of the people you bring into the table. And so that's, to me, the number one thing, be genuine, be yourself, be honest about what you're trying to do.

  I'll put it in the law department. If I'm interviewing somebody who says, I want to be a general counsel, I want to be chief legal officer. I want to know that. I'm not going to feel threatened by that. I'm not going to. I want to know that because now I know when the person is ambitious and has goals and I want to help that person get there.

  And that might mean they're going to leave in three years because you know, I'm not going anywhere, but I want to know that I don't want somebody coming in and saying, oh, I just want to work for you forever. And that's not genuine, and I'm going to feel like you don't really want my job. You just want any job.

  So, you have to convey that the job that you're interviewing for is something that you uniquely want. The good and the bad that come with it, right? You don't want it just to seem like I'm just looking for a job, any job. So, you have to be honest, you have to be genuine and you have to take some risks. You know, there's people say, when you're being interviewed, you're also interviewing the people who are interviewing you.

  And I agree with that fully. Ask hard questions, ask real questions, ask about trajectory. Um, I think those are the things people want to know that you care about.

  [00:27:09] Mosah: So, if you wanted to get hired by yourself, if you were a candidate looking to join one of your teams, what would you do to get noticed or to network in?

  What advice would you give candidates? And obviously this is intended to convey to people some best practices. And my hope isn't that your inbox gets flooded, although it might, what's some guidance or tips you would give?

  [00:27:31] Matt: I would say, I mentioned that the way I was envisioning when I was, when I was doing it, that this neural network lighting up, right?

  This maps lights going off all over the places when I'm envisioning like a sci-fi movie, do that. Light up your neural network. If you say, I want to get to Matt Miller and I want to talk to him about Uptake or, you know what, I don't want to be at Uptake, but he was at Groupon, I want to talk about that. I want to know what his experience was about that, find that connection.

  It's very hard to keep up with all the people who reach out to you. I try to respond to people, but so many people reach out directly through LinkedIn or otherwise it can be hard. And so, you really do want to find that connection of somebody who can say, hey, you know, my friend would be really interested in talking with you or something, or maybe it's just through your law school or your undergrad or through something.

  Find a common connection. And that's the best way. And I wouldn't expect a hundred percent hit rate on that when you're doing that and activating your network. But to me, that is the way you get the attention. Because the blind resumes that are just thrown in, they certainly worked sometimes for people, no question about it. You should do that. But if there are opportunities that are particularly interesting to you, you have to spend time on finding where does my network connect here? Where is it as strong as you can make it? So I would, if you see an immediate, like LinkedIn has those second or third degree connections, is their terminology, if you just stop there, that's not enough.

  I would dig more. And you know, you're digging through your LinkedIn, you're digging through the social media to see who, who can really help me meet Matt or meet whoever it is I'm trying to meet. That would be my advice. That's how you get noticed. It's not the random emails. It's not the, the clever things you might put it in subject line.

  Sometimes it might be those things, but the best way is to find that connection.

  [00:29:10] Mosah: That's so true. And that that's obviously what we do for our clients all day, every day has helped make those introductions. Either putting our, our sort of seal of approval on it, or working with others to help them broker those introductions

  [00:29:25] Matt: Yeah. And sometimes if it's not under the cover of, I need something or just, I want to learn. I have something right now where recent college graduate, who I knew, whose family I know, is in a similar industry and wanted to talk about some things and it wasn't a, Hey-can you talk with this person about how'd you get to where you are, especially since I have a non-traditional path, right?

  I wasn't Harvard and then Yale, and then all these fancy things and then be at a fancy law firm forever and be partner and then be chairman of something. I mean I had a nonlinear path. And so, to reach out under cover of, I just want to make the connection to talk about how you got to where you are, or somebody said, you'd be a good person for me to talk to this person that we both know.

  That is great. Don't over ask hey, can you get my neighbor, my friend, my cousin, a job. That's an over ask.

  [00:30:16] Mosah: So, Matt, I'd like to talk a little bit about recruiters and your, your focus being in, in the legal field. We'll focus primarily on legal recruiters. So can you share with us a little bit about when, as a CLO, chief legal officer you'll engage a recruiter when you start to consider engaging a recruiter, as opposed to working through normal or non-recruiting-based hiring channels?

  [00:30:43] Matt: I have never used a recruiter in hiring in legal. I just haven't had a need. So when would I consider it? I would consider it if I'm not finding the right candidates for a particular role, for whatever reason, like maybe I'm just not finding the right qualifications or maybe there's a geographic limitation, but if I'm not having success over a reasonable period of time, then I would go to a recruiter.

  I have a very good inactive network. And when I post jobs, I get responses. And also, there aren't that many opportunities inside of companies in terms of the demand and the need. So when you post something, you're going to get a lot of resumes. I've just never had a hard time finding really qualified, really good candidates for jobs.

  So I've never used them. I would only imagine using a recruiter if I just can't find somebody that I need.

  [00:3:29] Mosah: What about as a candidate, as someone who had been looking, how did you, or leverage recruiters and what was your experience like in working with or making outreach to recruiters? Maybe there's more experience there to shed light on?

  [00:31:43] Matt: Yeah. I had a lot of experience there and I will say that from a candidate’s perspective, the recruiting industry is broken certainly from a perspective of somebody who wants to work for a company. It's different if you're trying to move from law firm to law firm, where recruiters will help you directly. In the corporate world, recruiters are hired by the companies to go find candidates.

  And so reaching out to recruiters, this is something it's probably a necessary step. I did it. I would submit my resume. A lot of them have online portals, send us your resume, do that. I sat and had lunch or drinks with some recruiters. I did all those things. 90% of them turned into not even a good relationship, just nothing.

  There was just sort of probably an hour loss for all of our time. Some recruiters were helpful. Even though they’d be very honest, and this is sort of one of my themes through this discussion, be honest about what you're looking for and trying to do. And some recruiters are really honest. They say look, I would love to help you, but I'm working with/for the companies and I have specific directives and I don't have anything here, but you know, one of the recruiters introduced me to you.

  And so that was a huge value to me. But a lot of them will just say hey, I don't work for you. Send me your resume. I'll call you if I think of something. And I think that they don’t, and they won't. Their bread is buttered by going to the usual candidates and hiring people out of high-level positions and high profile and moving them around, but it works. Again, back to the analogy of head coaching in professional sports, right?

  When, once you're in, you can coach the bears one year and then a couple of years later, you're coaching a different team.

  [00:33:08] Mosah: And if you're not successful, you'll coach New York Jets.

  [00:33:10] Matt: Or the Detroit lions, or maybe you'll take that step and go to college and then come back up. So there are a lot of things to me.

  If I'm talking to somebody who's really looking hard for their next opportunity, I'm not going to be telling them you should be really investing in recruiters. You shouldn’t invest your time there because I don't think the recruiters are going to pay attention to you. And I think that's unfortunate because when you're looking for a job and you're in between you're vulnerable, you're in a vulnerable state of your life. You're worried about your bills, your mortgage, your kids, whatever your life circumstance might be, or you're worried about how am I going to make it keep working? And you'll just not get return phone calls or people will kind of give half a try.

  If they're recruiting for something they're just not going to vary from the specs they were given. I did not meet any recruiter who was willing to say Matt, I think you're awesome, but you're not exactly what this client wants, but I'm going to see if I can get them to talk to you anyway, because I think you'd be a great fit.

  Which is to me sort of most, I think, a little bit what you do, but certainly not what the recruiters do. And that was a little bit discouraging because you talked to somebody like, I know I can do this job and I know you're telling me what they want is they want this degree, or they want this number of Superbowl trophies. I get it.

  But I would say, you gotta do what you gotta do. So sure, it doesn't hurt. It takes five minutes to go online, upload your resume to all their portals, do all that kind of stuff. If somebody introduces you to a recruiter or you have a chance to meet one and have lunch or have a coffee or have whatever, it is what you want to do with your time, you can certainly do it.

  But on the, on the list of things that are likely to be successful, that's not going to be high.

  [00:34:39] Mosah: So, Matt, you left Bark. I think within a year of becoming their general counsel. And I think for some of our listeners, they might view that as, as a quick change and perhaps even stigmatize it a little bit. Would you shed some light on the sort of process that you went through and thinking about leaving a job by what all accounts is, is quickly, and how you think people should consider those types of opportunities?

  And when they, when it's okay to do that.

  [00:35:09] Matt: Yes. Great question. You have to be thoughtful about that stuff. I mean, it was a quick departure. So people who think that would be thinking correctly. On just math, it was quick departure, but I think that the stigma around that is dated. I don't think that that matters that much anymore.

  It doesn't mean you should job hop. You should not job hop, but opportunities come up when they come up, you cannot control that. And you can't forego an opportunity. That might be the right one for you because you feel like it's going to look like a short time to somebody, whoever that somebody might be.

  That that cannot be your measure, but you have to be thoughtful and considerate about it for yourself. Like, is this the right thing for me to do? Am I going to put myself in a jam? And also others, like, why am I doing this? So you got to think about how would I explain it if somebody, like Mosah Goodman brings me on a podcast and asked me about it, how am I going to explain it?

  And for me, that was, I went through all of that analysis, and you know, the opportunity to come work at Uptake a Chicago-based company, with people who I had known for 20 years. The founder of Uptake is Brad Keywell. And I met him on the opposite side of a case and then worked in Groupon, which is another company that he was part of the founding team for.

  That was just a great opportunity for me. And one that I certainly wished it had come up at a time when there wasn't going to be a short stay interruption, but I don't control that. I have to make sure that when I'm leaving Bark, I do that on good terms and do it the right way. And I tried to do that.

  And I hope I succeeded in doing that. I had onboarded the lawyer there shortly before I was leaving. I felt like I was leaving them in a good spot. And of course, I wanted to talk with the person I hired to make sure he understood what was happening. Try to leave it all on good terms, knowing that I can explain to folks that this is a better opportunity for Matt Miller.

  It may not be for everybody, but for me coming back to work with people who I admire and an opportunity that I think is fantastic in an industry that I think is high growth and it's very relevant and very timely, and also gave me that opportunity to really rise. Chief legal officer, as opposed to general counsel, which I was at Bark, which might seem minor to some people.

  But to me really mattered because I wanted to do more than just lead legal. I wanted to be part of an executive team and have that voice. I'm not going to say I wasn't worried about the shortstop. It was on my mind, but I wasn't going to let that stop me from pursuing an opportunity that, that I think is a great opportunity that I think I can explain well to people when they say, what, why would you do that?

  And also leave the right way, always leave the right way anyway. But particularly if it's going to be relatively short, you want to make sure you leave the right way. But at the end of the day, it's your career. If somebody's feelings are hurt by what you did, as long as you're not trying to hurt their feelings, but their feelings get hurt, you can't control that.

  And you really can't worry about that too much. You know, their companies, aren't going to worry about it when they say hey, we have to make some changes and we're rearranging. We don't have a job for you anymore. They're going to feel bad and they're not gonna wanna hurt your feelings, but they're going to do it. Same way for yourself.

  Don't be rude. Don't burn bridges, but also don't worry too much if somebody feels bad about what you did. I don't know that there's that much stigma anymore to short stays, you know, the idea of staying for 50 years and getting a gold watch is not a thing really anymore. You just have to be able to make sure you can explain what you're doing.

  That has to make a lot of sense. So people understand that its objective and goal-driven that you are loyal, but that you don't control when opportunities come up, but you can't pass up an opportunity. Cause gee whiz, what might somebody think.

  [00:38:37] Mosah: Matt, one thing that a lot of people are factoring into their decision when they're making moves in their career or looking for new opportunities is compensation.

  And you and I, over the course of our work together, talked about that quite a lot, because it's an important factor. It's not the only factor in someone's job search. I'm wondering if you might shed a little bit of light from both sides of the table, as an executive who makes and extends offers and as a candidate, how you think about compensation and some of the things that others should be thinking about?

  [00:39:08] Matt: Well, great question. Obviously it's always top of mind for people. I think when you said that it's an important factor, but not the only factor that's sort of the key right. Compensation matters. You should know your value. And you should want to be paid your value, but that can't be the only thing, right?

  Because if there, there might be some opportunities that will pay you more than other opportunities, but it's just, you're not going to like the culture. You're not going to like your life. They're going to want you to do things that aren't gonna fit the rest of how you imagine your days. And so it can't be your only factor, but you do as a candidate.

  I'll talk about that role. First, you do have to have some idea of what is my worth in the market, and you're gonna have to define that market yourself. Is that a geographic market? Is that a job role market? What is it? Is it a public company market versus a privately held company market? And you're going to know that just from peers and other people, maybe other jobs you've had, and you should not settle for anything less than that.

  With an asterisk, the asterisk being, unless you have really good reason to do it, like you love the opportunity. You think that maybe you want the experience that the company is going to provide, and maybe you don't see it as a long-term solution for you, but Hey, I really want to get experience in this industry.

  And so even though they're under market, I can do this for a little while, but my warning to you then would be, don't forget your goal, which is that's not your longterm answer. So if you take something like that, cause you feel like, hey, I really want to get experience in this industry. Then, a little bit underpaid.

  But I'll get the experience and then I'll move on. Don't forget that-then I'll move on part. Meaning you have to start your networking and you have to start building your brand because otherwise you'll find yourself under compensated for far too long. And you'll go way past your, your shelf life of, I want to get the experience.

  You'll have the experience and the candidate world. You have to know your worth. People are going to give you different answers on what that is. West coast-folks might say some based on some percentage of the company and what your role is. That's too complicated of math for me. I always just had numbers in mind.

  Like I think the numbers about this based on peers I talked to and things I know, and that's what I was looking for from the hiring. I want to know candidates know their worth. That tells me they one, they value themselves and their belief in themselves. It also tells me they've done their homework. They know what, what the range is ought to be.

  But I also think, you know, employers should pay their people fairly. We try to do that at Uptake and everywhere I've been, we try to do that. You want to make sure you're paying people fairly, that might depend on, uh, on a different, you know, mix of things. Is it, is there equity involved? Is it public company equity or is it private company equity that may or may not ever have any value, but it's going to be a mix of things.

  It really does bother me when I see employers. And when I say see employers, I mean, things you see people talk about on LinkedIn, how companies might try to get people on the cheap. I think I saw somebody put it as they want to get rockstar singers for backup singer prices. And that's just the wrong way to do business.

  So I think that you shouldn't do that because if you're doing that as an employer, you might get people in the door because maybe they want that experience, but maybe they just need to get it. They've been out of work for so long. We just need to get something, they're not going to stay. So you're not going to build any really good culture, the dive and save in the end zone to use a term that I, that I like and have adopted.

  Right. So, you know what I mean by that is somebody leaves and say, oh, Hey, we'll pay you more money. That's too late. They might say, yeah, But all you're then doing is buying some time before they leave again. Why not show people the value in it at the beginning? You know? And if somebody then finds some position that pays them more money, maybe you gotta be okay as an employer with, with them going to pursue that.

  Cause that might be outside of what you think the market is. Right? And so everybody's gotta be reasonable and try to free people the right way and respect the decisions that people make. Um, if they have different views of what the market ought to be, but you know, the summary for the candidates is don't sell yourself short.

  If you have to take a stop along the way, keep your eye on the prize and don't lose sight of your goal. And from the employer side, treat people fairly. Remember that at one point in time in your life, whether recently, or a long time ago you were that candidate.

  [00:42:55] Mosah: Yeah. One thing that people who haven't quite achieved their executive level status yet in their professions might be wondering is how long should I stay in a role? What does loyalty look like in the year 2022 and beyond? How should someone who wants to get to that level? But it's as a number of years, if not decades, before they get there, be thinking about issues of loyalty and their own management of their career.

  [00:43:20] Matt: Okay, great question. I think loyalty matters. The loyalty can look different ways, right? So you can be loyal to a place and still leave after a year or two or three or whatever the time might be. I'm going to relate it to myself for a second. And then come back to the center of the question. I was a general four years.

  That's not that long of a time in a lawyers lifespan very connected to the firm. I work with them. I'm friends with many of the lawyers there. I'm friends with many alumni there. It was an important part of my development. And a lot of that just depends on how you leave a place. And today's workforce is pretty mobile. People, you know, especially newer people coming into the, to the working world are willing to move more easily than, than people were a generation ago.

  And as hiring people and executives, we have to understand that. And part of the success people are going to have is if I can make somebody better, they can find more growth, more success by moving on. But I'm part of that chain, right? I'm part of that. They're their success. That makes me feel excellent.

  Just as good as people who stay in can promote all the way up. I don't want to stand in somebody's way. If I don't have vertical mobility for somebody, but they've got a great opportunity and I can help them get there and help them succeed, I want to do that. And I think most executives I know, and leaders and hiring managers, I know these days, feel the same.

  This notion that you have to be loyal and stay until you're done working, or until somebody else leaves and you can take their job. That's unfair to people. Right back to that concept of you got to take care of yourself first. So I would be telling people, working their way up in their working life is you got to just pay attention to your reputation.

  Right? And so if you're going to leave a place, because you think you have a better opportunity do it right. Be honest, be forthright with people, and then it's okay. If you're moving every six months, every year for no particular reason, other than maybe $10,000 more here or there every time, I think people will see through that.

  But if you've got an opportunity to say I was there for a while, but then they hear, I had an opportunity to have a much bigger, let's take it in legal world. All of a sudden I was going to manage three different aspects of a legal function instead of just the one that I was doing here, where they were going to let me work internationally, or they're going to let me handle something else more directly.

  That's a perfectly good reason to make a change. And I think people should be okay with that. On the flip side, there's also nothing wrong with somebody saying I really liked my job and I'm paid well, I like my boss. I like my colleagues. I like people who work for me. I don't have any upward mobility because I'm at the top unless somebody else leaves.

  And so there's no upward mobility, but I like where I'm at. That's also a perfectly fine choice. So I guess the theme of all this for me is you got to make the choice that feels right to you. And then you gotta make sure you're treating people the right way, whatever that choice might be. If you're going to stay, obviously you're going to be a good team player.

  If you're going to leave. Don't burn bridges. Don't be rude about it. Don't, don't do things the wrong way, because that is part of, now that is part of your story and you want it to be a positive part of your story. So I don't know if that answers your question completely, but I have people who've worked for me who are now at higher positions in other companies.

  And I love that. That makes me feel like I'm succeeding. I'm doing something.

  [00:46:24] Mosah: Matt on every episode, as I might've told you, when we were talking about you coming on the show, we support a different nonprofit for every guest. And I'd like to know today,what nonprofit you would like for us to support as a small token of appreciation for joining.

  [00:46:40] Matt: Sure great way to close. Love the idea.

  And when you raise this for me, which really quickly came to mind what I was going to want to do. It's actually not an organization that I'm directly involved with that I, when I see their work and it's really meaningful. An organization called Thresholds here in Chicago, they're very active in mental health and mental wellbeing community.

  That's an important issue to me always has been it's of course become incredibly important and more in the spotlight through these COVID years, that's becoming more something that people are more comfortable talking about. I'm connected with them on social media. I see things they do in Chicago. I just think their work is so incredibly valuable.

  And so my pleasant surprise for them, although we're not involved with them directly.

  [00:47:23] Mosah: Thanks so much, Matt really appreciate it. Look forward to keeping in touch with you. Thanks so much.

  [00:47:27] Matt: Thank you.

  [00:47:30] Richard: Thank you for joining us on hiring insights. Remember, you can learn more about Top Talent Advocates and listen to other episodes by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and click on the podcast list

  You can also email us at tta@toptalentadvocates.com.

  Description text goes here

Mosah Fernandez Goodman | Top Talent Advocates - Career Advocacy for Executive Leaders and Lawyers

Mosah Fernandez Goodman | Top Talent Advocates: Career Advocacy for Executive Leaders and Lawyers

Mosah Fernandez Goodman, President and Founder of Top Talent Advocates, is passionate about helping people and businesses maximize their opportunities. In this episode, Mosah details the process of career advocacy for executive leaders and lawyers. No question goes unanswered during this in-depth look at the professional tools needed to land your next role: resume revisions, advocacy and coaching, interview prep, closing and compensation. He shares how his personal experience of not knowing what he was leaving on the table in terms of opportunities unpursued or in terms of compensation early in his career that led to his niche methodology.

• Mosah Goodman Transcript

  Hiring Insights Mosah Goodman

  [00:00:00] Richard: Welcome to hiring insights. The podcast that provides insight into the executive hiring process and experience. Whether you are a job seeker, a people leader, a recruiter, an executive coach or simply interested in talent, there is something here for you on Hiring Insights. Today's episode is presented by Top Talent Advocates, where we advocate for executive and legal talent.

  You can learn more about Top Talent Advocates, listen to other episodes and hire great talent by visiting www.toptalentadvocates.com and clicking on podcast. Now here's your host for hiring insights, Mosah Fernandez Goodman.

  [00:00:45] Lindsay: Welcome and thank you for joining us. I'm Lindsay Hofbauer, the business development associate for Top Talent Advocates. And today it is my pleasure to introduce and interview, President of Top Talent Advocates, Mosah Goodman.

  [00:00:59] Mosah: Thanks so much, Lindsay.

  [00:01:00] Lindsay: You are very welcome. Tell us a little bit

  about yourself Mosah.

  [00:01:05] Mosah: So originally I'm from New York City. I grew up on the east coast and went to Wesleyan university for my undergraduate studies. I was actually a theater major. So doing this podcast is an interesting sort of throwback to the days of performance. Grew up in New York, went to Wesleyan and then spent a few years doing fundraising work. Working with lots of people to help make contributions to the university. And then I went to law school and business school at the University of Iowa. And from there I spent probably a decade or so in a series of jobs, financial services primarily. I worked for Gavilon, which was a spin out from ConAgra foods, it’s a private equity, backed, spin out.

  And there, I ran a number of projects for the executive team, held an in-house counsel legal role. From there I went to work for a Berkshire backed insurance company. So I spent about seven, eight years in financial services and then made a move into the nonprofit world. And five to six years ago, I launched Top Talent Advocates with the aim of helping people find newer and better career options.

  Live in Omaha, Nebraska, but I've lived in and worked on both coasts and just love what I do.

  [00:02:19] Lindsay: What was happening

  in your career or what were you seeing in the job market that triggered you to think there's a need for something such as Top Talent?

  [00:02:29] Mosah: That's a great question, too. You know, Top Talent Advocates started as a hobby. I enjoy the hunt for a job. I'll tell the listeners a little bit of a story here. In my first year in law school, I took two weeks off from law school to apply to summer jobs.

  And as everyone knows that first semester in law school is sort of make or break. Well, I took the approach that the whole point of going to law school is to become a lawyer and find a job. And so I wanted to ensure that I had an employment opportunity in the summer. And so I took two weeks off and I applied to 612 jobs in that two week period.

  I did that through not online applications, that wasn't the thing at that time of the hiring cycle. So I wrote 612 cover letters, somewhat templated, but did a mail drop. I explicitly remember walking across the parking lot in the post office and seeing cover letters kind of blow out of my stack because there was a gush of win. Because I was carrying 612 of them and they just sort of flew across the parking lot.

  But probably since that time, I would say that I became obsessed with pursuing and maximizing one's career opportunities. I didn't know at that time that it was going to become a business, but that's where I sort of saw the need. Who else could help me do this more efficiently and more effectively. And so working with people on a

  friendly basis, and just helping people think through their job search was something that I'd always done. It was my wife who said, you know, this might be a service that people could really value and really engage in because I spent during my career transitions a lot of time calling recruiters, I spent a lot of time doing online applications. I spent a lot of time calling people.

  And I would say that that was successful to a point, but it certainly wasn't efficient. And I did not know what I was leaving on the table in terms of opportunities unpursued or in terms of compensation, unrealized or unrecognized. And so it was born out of that sort of personal experience and seeing results for the people that I was helping informally that I put together some process and started doing this more formally. And that's how Top Talent Advocates was born. .

  [00:04:55] Lindsay:What is Top Talent Advocates and what do you do?

  [00:04:59] Mosah: Sure, that's a great question. I describe it to people as essentially being a sports agent for non-athletes. Not saying my clients aren't athletic. Many of them play recreational basketball or work out on their Peloton, but it's a model of a sports agent designed to help executives and people who are on their way to being executives, help manage their career and find newer and better opportunities.

  Too often people's career management is not top of mind or it's an afterthought. And with a little bit of concentration, a little bit of planning and a whole lot of networking, I think people can really maximize their opportunities and, and that's what we do. So we're not a recruiting firm. We are not a life coach.

  What we do is as, you know, help people find new and better opportunities and maximize their income and really maximize their professional development.

  [00:05:54] Lindsay: How long has

  Top Talent been operating and what are some of its successes?

  [00:05:59] Mosah: So Top Talent Advocates was started in 2017. So we've been in business now, we're starting our sixth year and the successes that we've seen really vary. I've worked with folks intensively-three days to help them interview prep for an executive level position that they've secured.

  And that took them from being unemployed to right back in the saddle, where they had been securing seven figure opportunities. Not that I necessarily brought them that opportunity in 36 hours, but we've been as effective as bringing people to the right job in a matter of weeks. All the way through to helping people over a much more comprehensive and elongated search.

  So we've helped people get back into jobs really quickly. We've helped people sort through and make sure that they're making a move for the right reasons. Sometimes people overestimate or underestimate their marketability. And we make sure that our clients are grounded. Our goal is not just to make a transaction. Our goal is to make sure that people are successful in accomplishing their goals. And so we've helped CFOs secure opportunities at startups when they'd been part of larger organizations that didn't have the same upside or sort of vibrance to the role that they had wanted. We've helped CHROs secure their own jobs, really marketing them with an eye towards any number of different specialties, whether it be diversity, equity, and inclusion, or in highly competitive roles that focus on a lot of comp strategy. That's some of the work that we've done with CHROs. We've also worked with a ton of attorneys, you know, folks who are general councils, lower level in-house counsel, but typically headed towards general counsel type candidates.

  We also work with compliance folks and we work with a lot of law firm partners as well. The legal market, particularly right now in 21/ 22 is incredibly hot and there's a lot of transition and transaction going on as far as talent. And we work with business development folks, and we work with other senior executives in organizations.

  So we've had some really great successes in helping people get back to work. And we've also had some really great successes in helping people maximize their earning potential. We always look to make sure that people are making as much money as possible. Assuming that's something that's important to them.

  And I've yet to find a candidate who doesn't value their earning potential. And so it's not uncommon for us to see 20, 30, 40% increases when someone makes a move and particularly much larger variable comp.

  [00:08:44] Lindsay: Where does Top Talent Advocates operate out of, and what locations do you serve?

  [00:08:49] Mosah: If you were to throw a dart in the middle of the country, we're in Omaha, Nebraska. But having worked and lived on both coasts and having great networks in really every major market, we're still working on Phoenix, that's one area that we don't have as strong a connection in, but really every other major market in the US is where we operate.

  That tends to be where there's the greatest job movement. And that tends to be where a lot of the higher salaries are. So if you look on our website, you'll see a map that shows the locations in which we're placing candidates and working with candidates. And it's New York, DC, Boston, Chicago, Miami, Seattle, Los Angeles, San Francisco, major cities in Texas- Dallas, Houston, Austin.

  And then here in the Midwest as well, Minneapolis, St. Louis, Kansas City, Atlanta is a really strong market and a lot of people want to move to Tennessee these days. So Nashville and Memphis are certainly up and coming markets as well.

  [00:09:49] Lindsay: You mentioned earlier, the great resignation, everybody's talking about it. What do you see for 2022 in terms of maybe a new hiring market or changes to the hiring market? Based on what we've seen this past year,

  [00:10:06] Mosah: I think the volume of transactions, the volume with which people will be moving and seeking new opportunities will continue at least for the first half of the year.

  What I don't expect is some great upheaval at the level that most of our clients tend to be. The great resignation-the largest volume of those folks tend to be of a certain age and a certain skill level. So we're not seeing it in the director level and above market, the same volume that you might be seeing for more entry level or mid-level manager positions.

  It's simply because those roles are harder to come by. And once people get them they tend to stay there until there's another opportunity that's of equal value to them. So my prediction, and I don't have a crystal ball, is that we'll continue to see high volume level and transactions, but not necessarily at the executive level.

  [00:11:04] Lindsay: What tools or services do you provide to help them maximize their career opportunities?

  [00:11:10] Mosah: Sure. Great question. We,at the risk of sounding cliche, break the work down into three phases.

  The first phase is a pretty well established means of providing services to professionals. We help people develop their tools and then we help them market themselves. And then we help them negotiate compensation and onboard to their new role. So the first portion of that is the tool development, as I mentioned, is really helping people with their resume, helping people with their LinkedIn profile, helping people with cover letters for certain applications, those are still required.

  And then in many cases, helping people develop a pitch deck and a job search strategy. That's gonna be highly effective for them to maximize the time that they spend searching for a job. And there are a lot of people that do that work. That's not uncommon. The second phase of what we do in marketing people really is

  our first differentiating factor, which is that we actually take our clients out to market. Meaning we leverage our network. We help them maximize their network and we really take the time and energy to market them as we would a high-quality. They are some of the most successful and some of the most refined and well-educated and experienced people in the country.

  And we want to make sure that everyone who's reviewing their resume and reviewing their candidate pool knows that our clients really are top talent, at the risk of sounding cliche. So we go out and we market them and we help them in ways that are creative and ways that are, I would say in some cases, just very traditional.

  And the third phase of work, what we do for people is help them prepare for interviews. If you spend all the time, money, and energy to get your resume and LinkedIn profile and go through the marketing phase and the interview isn't nailed-if we don't actually do what the whole point of the job search is, which is to get the job, we're really letting ourselves and our clients down.

  And so we spend lots of time with our clients preparing for interviews, again, drawing from that theater experience. Going through mock interview process going through and really understanding what a hiring manager is looking for and what the market conditions are that would enable someone to leverage that opportunity and secure it. That's what we spend a lot of time doing.

  And then compensation analysis. At the level of employment that our clients are seeking, whether it be a few hundred thousand up to several million dollars, leaving a little bit of money on the table or a lower percentage of money on the table is signicificant. Nobody wants to leave fifty to a hundred thousand dollars on the table.

  And so we have access to both public, as anyone would, and then a lot of nonpublic data through our vendors who provide that insight and through our experience and pulse of the market to really make sure that our clients can either confirm that the offers they're receiving are within market or that they know what to ask for and how to ask for it, to maximize their earnings.

  [00:14:08] Lindsay: If I am an executive, at what point in my career, should I consider utilizing Top Talent Advocates?

  [00:14:15] Mosah: The right time to consider using Top Talent Advocates is when you become curious about what else might be out there. And that thought process happens when you feel that you may not be maximizing your earning potential. When you're starting to plateau, whatever that means for you and your particular role. If you're going through a merger or an acquisition, particularly if your organization is being acquired, or if you just want to know that your value in the market is being maximized, those are the types of situations where our clients say, I want to explore new opportunities. All the way to people who have been let go, or who have been downsized and need to find a job.

  We work with people at all phases of their job search. So those are the types of situations that our clients are in and facing that we really add value.

  [00:15:13] Lindsay:How much do your services cost?

  [00:15:15] Mosah: Every engagement is customized to the client. So anywhere from a few thousand dollars to significantly higher. We work with folks in a way that's conducive to a win-win engagement.

  So we don't have packaged pricing. Every client is unique. We take that approach. We don't have a cookie cutter or a formula, and so we don't price our services without knowing the needs and scope of work for each.

  [00:15:46] Lindsay: So most of what you do focuses on executive level talent are any of your services for entry-level or mid-level talent?

  [00:15:57] Mosah: So we tend to operate at the director level and above. That tends to be the population of folks who both have the interest and the capacity to make an investment in their search, because we're never paid by an employer.

  We don't fee split with recruiters. We are paid by our clients and everything that we do is in their best interest. And so that just tends to be where people want to make their investment. We will work with anyone. We've worked with college students. We've worked with trailing and relocating spouses who might just be looking to get back into the workforce, particularly after the pandemic. And so we will work with anyone. It just tends to be that our focus and our greatest customer base is that director level and above people who are either at, or headed towards being an executive in a larger organization, mid-sized organization. The size of the company or organization doesn't really matter.

  It's more so the level and willingness to make that investment. That's where the jobs are fewer and far between, right? We talk about the great resignation. You don't see as many executives in director level positions, resigning, or necessarily even moving. They're just less of those available. And so we really think that we add the most value at that high end market

  [00:17:15] Lindsay: What hurdles do you help clients overcome in your process?

  [00:17:19] Mosah: So we help clients overcome a lot of obstacles in their search. It really does depend on the particular client, but when someone comes to us, they often come with questions. They often come with apprehensions. They often come with frustrations, from a search that they've been going through on their own for quite some time.

  And so it really depends on what they're seeing in their particular search. Oftentimes people don't know how to have a clear and concise pitch for themselves. They don't know how to accurately state their value, both to their potential employers and to their network. When you ask someone what kind of role they're looking for or what they're looking for or what they're looking to achieve-

  It doesn't matter in my experience how much money you make, or how much experience you have, being very clear and understanding with what you want to achieve and how a hiring manager would gain value from your time, your talent and your expertise. Because that's really what the employment equation is. It's someone buying your time, talent, and expertise, and that's what they pay for.

  Making sure that you can clearly articulate that. And what you know and want is really the biggest, most common obstacle I think people have when they're first getting started. And then it's the process and the inefficiency of so many executive searches. So often people think that recruiters are going to be knocking down their door to make sure that they acquire their talent.

  And sometimes that's the case, but it is a job market and there's always competition. So making sure that you know how to access the right network in the right way is really the premise of our business, but something that people all too often overlook is the actual process and methodologies that need to be used in order to have an efficient job search.

  And so sometimes people also just don't know where to get started. And sometimes time is the issue, right? Searching for a job can be and often is at least a part, if not full-time job in and of itself. And so leveraging a client's network, leveraging our network, helping people gain clarity in their search and understanding the efficiencies that we've learned from our work with clients over the years, and just having a good sense and pulse on the market.

  Those are some of the obstacles that we help people overcome, but it really does depend on the client. And I can tell you some stories that will make you laugh, and maybe one or two that would make you cry.

  [00:20:00] Lindsay: Clearly Top Talent Advocates is not a recruiting firm. You are not a recruiter. You provide advocacy services, but what is your relationship with recruiters?

  [00:20:11] Mosah: Entirely symbiotic. We work really closely with recruiters because they have access to roles that our clients are interested in. And so most of the time when I get on the phone with a prospective client, I spend time explaining to people what we do and how we're not a recruiting firm.

  That just happens to be where we spend a lot of time educating people about our services, because it is fairly niche. But we work really closely with recruiters in every industry. There are two sectors that we don't work in and that's medical, so we're not representing doctors or dentists, we're also not representing folks in military related industries.

  Not because we're not appreciative of people's service, but we just don't have experience or expertise in that area. But whether it be technology, finance, human resources, we work with a ton of attorneys. Those are the areas, business development, that we know we can really add a lot of value. And so we make sure that we have relationships with key recruiters in those areas, in those markets.

  It's not uncommon for us to help source talent for recruiters. We are a free source of talent for recruiters. And so if we can be good stewards of our client's interests and help recruiters find and place candidates, that's a win-win. And similarly recruiters don't necessarily have the time, energy or inclination because they're not on the coaching side of it.

  They're a great referral source for us. It's not uncommon right, for a recruiter to source 10, 15, 20 highly qualified people for one opportunity. And so what do those 10, 15, 20 other people do? They move on to search on their own or work with another recruiter in the hopes of being that one. And I think that we've proven that we can be a good source of aid to those recruiters and enable them to refer their clients or those candidates to us and work with them to help them find their next option.

  [00:22:15] Lindsay: Can you walk me through the process of being one of your clients from start to finish?

  [00:22:19] Mosah: Absolutely. So every client engagement starts with a conversation and then a question, and we do it in that way because I need to understand what questions to be asking. Everything that we do, is the cliche term-bespoke. It’s customized to the individual that we're working with.

  So when someone first engages us, I get on a video call with them and get to know what they're trying to achieve at a really high level. And everything is about goals. This isn't a service, Top Talent Advocates doesn't provide a service that is one that walks you through disc assessments and finding your personal passion.

  There are a lot of executive coaches out there that do that, but everything that we do- and they do it really well and we work with a lot of them, but everything that we do is focused on the action of helping you get your next role and get the right role. And so we always want to define what that is. And once we have that initial intake call, I'll ask a series of probably 10 to 15 questions of a client that really helps them narrow the universe of what they're looking for and unlock new opportunities that they might not have thought of.

  And so those 10 to 15 questions, the actual act of responding in written form and being concrete, and what we're trying to achieve, is really grounding for clients. So that's where we start. And every client that we work with goes through the process of reworking their tools. So all too often I'll get, in fact this is often the case, that the higher level an executive is the more work there is in my needs.

  Simply because they've been recruited or invited to new opportunities and haven't put in the time and attention that's necessary to help refine the materials that are needed. And so those tools: the resume, LinkedIn profiles that are optimized for search engines and optimized for the algorithms that recruiters and hiring managers use, making sure that a cover letter, even though it may seem like an antiquated tool is actually utilized in the right way.

  And then for a lot of entrepreneurial companies developing a pitch deck and in some cases, in many cases, a social media campaign for those folks. All of that work is done collaboratively. I make sure that I'm in touch with our clients at least on a weekly basis, if not more, to make sure that those tools are being developed to achieve the desired outcome and goals.

  And it doesn't have to be that a client says this is the exact job title in the exact location that I want. But if we say, I don't know, it's going to be really hard and highly inefficient and less likely to be effective. And so we really spend a lot of time on the front end being intentional. And if you will, planful about how to proceed in the job search.

  And so it's always about starting with that goal in mind and building a project plan as to how to get there. And then the tools support that search. So if we know what goal we're trying to achieve, it makes it so much easier for us to be able to market to achieve that goal. And so it's really following that project plan.

  After the marketing process, we make sure that our clients are prepared for their interviews. And then we make sure that the compensation process and onboarding process is done smoothly and done in a way that enables them to maximize opportunities. I'll tell you a story about a one client that we've had and worked with.

  The client happened to be an attorney who was looking to maximize their earnings and the market was pretty hot for their area of specialty. And so they did not want anyone, literally anyone knowing that they were looking, they even hesitated to tell their spouse that they were looking for a new opportunity for fear that someone might learn of it and put them in an awkward situation in their current role.

  And so after going through the process of creating the tools, the marketing phase needed to be handled with absolute kid gloves to make sure that nobody learned that the client was looking. And so what I did was I took that person out to market by prospecting, right? I called the likely employers, the employers that would likely hire someone like this or that I knew had a need for someone like this.

  And I placed them under a nondisclosure agreement and then had a very candid and direct conversation about this person's pedigree about the value they'd added in previous roles and about the qualities and skillset that this individual had. And as it turned out, when we were doing our prospecting, we're always reaching out to our network of hiring managers.

  And we're also reaching out to new hiring managers, right? Because we don't know everyone in the world, but as it turned out, one of the hiring managers that we had a really solid relationship with with whom we'd referred other clients to in the past, trusted the brand, if you will, of Top Talent Advocates and understood that the types of people we've been working with were of the quality that we know they are.

  So that leverage or the ability to ensure that someone knew we were working with a high quality candidate, opened up the doors for conversation at a C-suite level. And the person's compensation went from low to mid twos into the upper fives and the variable compensation became seven figures from what had been just a few hundred thousand dollars.

  Now I know that's still a lot of money, but when that person realized the opportunity that was on the table and the relationships that we've been able to leverage and unlock based on our previous work with that company, it was a moment of celebration, right? The confetti sort of went off once they got that offer and it was all because we had built a relationship with a hiring manager who was excited to learn more about the types of people that we were representing, because they'd had such a good experience in the past.

  We can maintain confidentiality or we can shout someone's names from the hilltops. It's all about what the client wants. And it's all about achieving that end goal.

  [00:28:34] Lindsay: You touched on another current buzz term, knowing your worth. Can you elaborate on compensation negotiation services? And is that a standalone service that you offer

  [00:28:49] Mosah: Compensation is something we take very seriously, but also really enjoy because it tends to be in the top two or three things that someone values in their work. Often it's their manager and the relationships with people that they have at work that's important.

  And that gets to culture, making sure that they're the right fit for the role. Nothing's more frustrating or less rewarding than working in a role that you can't be successful at. And then compensation tends to be somewhere in that top three, for some it's number one,and for others it's lower than that, but rarely do I see compensation being a non-issue for folks.

  And so we make sure that we spend the right amount of time and use the right resources to ensure that compensation, which is part art, part science, is at minimum within range. And what we try to do is we try to take a rational yet appropriately aggressive approach to our compensation. We want to make sure that clients don't leave money on the table, but that they're reasonable and rational in their expectations.

  And so sometimes we have to talk to our clients about the change in market, right? Not every role is going to lead to a seven figure income. Some do, many do, but not everyone. And then there are other cases where we're working with clients whose income actually doubles simply because they hadn't tested the market in a while or might not have had the confidence or insight into understanding what opportunities are out there.

  And so we're constantly having conversations with hiring managers and CHROs and making sure that we're staying abreast of what all salary surveys, which are often public, show in the market. And we'll reach back out to a client who we've worked with in the past and say-hey, not trying to pry, but just want to make sure you understand that the type of role you're in right now Is even more valuable than it had been when we last worked together. And so just as a courtesy, we want to make sure that you're seeing that correctly and we'll have those conversations because it's all about the relationship and provide that insight for free. But yes, absolutely. We'll work with people just on their compensation negotiation.

  We'll work with people just on the resume. We'll work with people just on their job search strategy, just on their social media, it's a la cart or all inclusive. We're happy to even just do interview prep with folks, whatever someone needs to help them get that next role or optimize their compensation we will work them.

  [00:31:14] Lindsay: I think that's a great place to wrap things up for the day,Mosah. Do you have any closing thoughts?

  [00:31:20] Mosah: I want to make sure that people are happy and successful in managing their careers. That's really what drives me. That's why Top Talent Advocates was created and I get a rush, like literally a fist pump.and

  you know, excited text messages when our clients secure the roles that they're seeking. And so making a difference in those people's lives, whether it be getting them back to work or helping them maximize their opportunities is a rush and a pleasure. So I just look forward to working with more people and helping them secure what they're looking for.

  [00:31:55]Richard:Thank you for joining us on Hiring Insights. Remember,you can learn more about Top Talent Advocates and listen to other episodes by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and clicking on the podcast. You can also email us at tta@toptalentadvocates.com.