Mosah Fernandez Goodman sits down with Bryan Krajeski in this episode of Hiring Insights. Bryan is not only an incredible external recruiter, but he also has a long history of sales, marketing, and internal recruiting experience. In addition to giving us some insight into the recruiting world, both internal and external recruiters, Bryan will help us understand what goes on behind the scenes in a recruiting process, tips and tricks for how to optimize your LinkedIn profile, the importance of networking, how to draft a great cover letter, and use your resume effectively to help yourself get noticed.
Specific steps a recruiter goes through to place someone; sourcing, building a talent pool, challenges.
How to advantage yourself as a candidate.
What happens after you submit an online application?
Recruiter myths.
Making outreach to a recruiter; when they can help, and when they can’t.
Utilize the career tools at your disposal (LinkedIn, resumes, cover letters) but put thought and strategy into how you are creating them.
Requisites and red flags for resumes.
Network. Network. Network. Talk to the recruiters who make outreach, look to people in your industry, and strategize what companies you are targeting.
How best to work with a recruiter.
What qualities make a most placeable candidate (MPC)?
Finding a new position is a marathon not a sprint.
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[00:00:00] Richard: Welcome to Hiring Insights. The podcast that provides insight into the executive hiring process and experience, whether you are a job seeker, a people leader, a recruiter, an executive coach, or simply interested in talent, there is something here for you on the Hiring Insights. Today's episode is presented by Top Talent Advocates, where we advocate for executive and legal talent.
You can learn more about Top Talent Advocates, listen to other episodes, and hire great talent by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and clicking on podcast. Now here's your host for Hiring Insights, Mosah Fernandez Goodman.
[00:00:44] Mosah: Today, I'm joined by Bryan Krajeski. In addition to being an incredible external recruiter, Bryan has a long history of sales, marketing, and internal recruiting experience. In addition to giving us some insight into the recruiting world, both internal and external recruiters, Bryan will help us understand what goes on behind the scenes in a recruiting process and tips and tricks for how to optimize your LinkedIn profile, draft a great cover letter, and you use your resume effectively to help yourself get noticed.
Hey Bryan, thanks so much for joining us today. You're incredibly versed in the recruitment and talent management space, particularly in the insurance and risk management space. Although I know that's not all you do.
I'm hopeful you can share with our candidates and our listeners a little bit about your background and how you got to where you are.
[00:01:45] Bryan: So my bachelor's degree is in marketing and my MBA is in marketing. But my background of getting into recruiting had been in various sales and marketing roles and account management, you know, through that, I feel like I learned resilience.
I learned relationship building. I learned how to be adaptable by working both for companies that were more nimble, uh, smaller, where you had to adapt quickly and then also working for larger companies of learning how to, you know, be professionally persistent. And all of that kind of comes through, helping me get into an internal recruiting role and making that kind of plunge and leap of faith.
And from there, I think I learned how to overall understand the industry and then make my way into agency recruiting.
[00:02:34] Mosah: Bryan, how many hours would you say you spend a day sourcing, recruiting and talking to candidates?
[00:02:40] Bryan: I probably work about a 12 to 16-hour day on average. And out of that day, I will spend probably a good two hours sourcing for candidates on LinkedIn, going through LinkedIn recruiter, looking for people that match certain job titles and going through resumes that I've collected over the months, just to make sure I'm not missing anything.
Also going back and even, you know, doing research on candidates who took jobs to see how things are going with them.
[00:03:11] Mosah: Why do you like this sector? What do you like the role that you currently hold?
[00:03:15] Bryan: I love networking. I love meeting and talking to new people. I love the challenge of getting a job order from a client and helping them fulfill that.
There's a lot of strategy that goes into this. I love meeting with employers to understand why do they have this need? And I understand our, excuse me, I love also talking to employers to understand, like, what makes you a great place to work? Why do candidates want to come work for you? Tell me about, you know, your best employee that you have and tell me about your worst.
And I want to hear all of that from them. So then when I go out to meet with candidates, I can help sell them. And I always tell employers too, that when I get a job order one of the reasons that I'm so passionate about what I do is because I'm not just going to go find a candidate within a week's time and go find someone to fill a role.
A lot of the candidates that I'm placing Mosah are going to be candidates who have built a relationship for months, if not years. And I go back to them and say, I just got this job order based on the conversations that we've had over the last six months, I think you might be a really good fit for it.
[00:04:21] Mosah: Can you give us a little bit of insight into you outside of work?
What do you like to do? What's your favorite brand of coffee? Those kinds of things.
[00:04:29] Bryan: So I am an avid coffee drinker. I will tell you that. I'm the proud owner of two espresso machines and use them both religiously throughout my day, but in what little spare free time I have, you know, my wife and I love to chase around our little two-and-a-half-year-old and just do fun family activities.
Uh, I'm a big soccer player. I'm terrible, but I love to do it. And I love to meet people just through the Omaha soccer community. And I've built a lot of lifelong friends through that as well. And even I've helped people in my soccer community get jobs. Not through me, but just helping kind of shepherd that network.
[00:05:06] Mosah: That’s great. And so you live here in Omaha, but do you only recruit in Omaha or tell us a little bit about the scope of your business.
[00:05:13] Bryan: So the bread and butter of what I do is going to be on the west coast, but I've been building over the last probably 12 to 18 months, maybe or even since, you know, since 2020, I've been doing more work just throughout the United States.
I've been getting more job orders and strong clients on the east coast and Texas, you know, Nevada, Utah, Arizona. I've been filling positions actually here in the Midwest, you know, in Omaha and Kansas and Iowa.
[00:05:44] Mosah: So Bryan, think about this as what you'd been doing as an internal recruiter. And if you might be willing to share with our listeners, the specific steps our recruiter goes through when working to place someone.
So everything from working with a hiring manager on a job description, through to the onboarding of a candidate.
[00:06:04] Bryan: So the steps of an internal recruiter from that perspective are going to be probably coming up with a job description and it might be something where the recruiter is given the job description.
It might be something where the recruiter actually helps create the job description. And this can vary depending if it's a newly created job, or if it's like a repeat position where they're hiring multiple, but a recruiter will most likely work with the hiring manager, whoever the hiring authority is.
You know, look out, hey, what are the different roles, responsibilities, duties, types of background that they're looking for the position and the recruiter from that perspective, it's going to then, you know, take that job description and essentially go source.
[00:06:44] Mosah: When you say go source, what does that mean?
[00:06:47] Bryan: I mean, I think the most common thing that people think of is going to be going on to things like LinkedIn.
So use a platform like a LinkedIn or a ZipRecruiter or tapping into a network. And from sourcing, I think a good recruiter is going to first look at what does the ideal candidate look like? And so maybe it's like literally going to a competitor and figuring out, hey, who do our competitors employ in this type of a position?
Or, you know, what does that ideal person look like? And then how do I go find that person. And so it's going to be sourcing based on trying to find someone on whether it's the right education, whether it's the right skillsets.
[00:07:20] Mosah: And so after sourcing, what is a recruiter's next step? What we're trying to do for listeners is help demystify, I guess, the process that goes on behind that recruiting curtain, if you will.
[00:07:31] Bryan: So a recruiter after a sourcing would probably build some sort of talent pool. And they're going to kind of figure out who I want to target. And that's kind of when the reach-out happens and how do they contact that person? Most commonly, I think people are going to be using LinkedIn as their network to reach out to people for positions.
So at that point, a recruiter is going to reach out to potential candidates and it's kind of say, Hey, Mosah, I have this position here. This is what I'm working on. Give a little bit of the background of what that position looks like. Is this something or just been talking about or, Hey, do you know somebody?
And a lot of the times when I reach out to candidates, I'm just asking them, do you know someone who might have interest in this position. Sometimes, what I'll do is I will literally go look at candidates who I know are not the right fit for the job, but it seems like they were probably connected to people that would do something like this.
[00:08:15] Mosah: Really helpful and insightful.
Thank you. What are some of the, I guess, common challenges or recruiter faces during the recruitment process? So we know as a candidate, what obstacles we run into and what roadblocks we might hit and pursuing an opportunity, but there are an equal number of challenges for recruiters. Would you shed some light on that?
Some of the hurdles and roadblocks that you have to overcome in order to source some place that, that ideal candidate?
[00:08:42] Bryan: Rejection.
[00:08:43] Mosah: That's the story of my life, Bryan.
[00:08:45] Bryan: So join the club, man. We meet on Saturday mornings. So rejection number one is the biggest roadblock that they face, I think, but alongside that, a lot of it comes down to compensation.
If you have a newly created job and you're working out the job description and you've been given a budget for this position, sometimes it's the difference of perception trying to meet reality and can the expectation live up to it. So when you're reaching out to candidates and you say, hey, I'm a position that pays X and most candidates in that industry are looking for Y that's very tough sometimes.
And so that's where you have to go back to the roadmap and say, okay, we're going to revisit the drawing board here. Are we going to be able to get what we want for this position within the salary range? So recruiters will face things like salary as a roadblock, logistics, I mean, depending on the role, where can this person be housed?
And so that is probably one of the biggest hurdles. I would say, recruiters face right now
[00:09:44] Mosah: To overcome some of those hurdles, right, obviously without necessarily reducing their compensation expectations, because they're not too many people who are willing to negotiate against themselves. What are some things that candidates can do to make it easy to be recruited?
Give a candidate, some insight into how to advantage themselves.
[00:10:02] Bryan: Primarily, I would say it's important for candidates just to be open to a conversation. And a lot of times I think people are going to just say, no, I'm not interested. I at least would always advise people to just be open to having a conversation because you're building your network.
We know the degrees of separation in certain industries are very small and you're trying to leave that door open for maybe not this thing, but something in the future. I've always told candidates, just have that initial call. I mean, if you know, it's something you're not interested in, hey, I get that and I respect that.
But if it's something where you think like, you know, I'm not interested right now, but this could be an opportunity for the. Have that initial call. And so I think not closing the door initially is one of the biggest things.
[00:10:49] Mosah: And then what would you say some of the most common myths are about the recruitment process?
[00:10:54] Bryan: I actually read an article on this probably, I don't know, six months ago. I can't remember where it was, but one of the funniest things is that I think that because hiring managers are the ones obviously making the, like the judgment call. So a candidate would go interview with a hiring manager. Not every hiring manager is equipped to conduct an interview.
They're not all good interviewers. And I think that that's a common myth that the industry faces is that if a hiring manager is the one conducting the interview, they know what they're doing.
[00:11:26] Mosah: Bryan, would you be willing to share a little bit of, uh, insider peek behind the curtain as to what happens when someone submits an online application?
That's often a question clients have.
[00:11:37] Bryan: Yeah. And nine times out of 10, when a candidate submits an application, it's going to sit in some applicant tracking system, depending on the size of the company, a recruiter will filter that based on keywords from a resume that matches the job description based on title, based on company.
I mean, I can imagine some of the behemoth companies are going to literally filter so many of these applications based on the keyword search. So for most candidates, when you send in an application, it's going to sit in an applicant tracking system and you know, you may get the initial response. It just says, hey, we received your resume.
If there's a match, we'll be in touch. And typically, you know, within, well, hopefully a short amount of time, at least there's a reach out and saying, hey, can we set up an initial call? But obviously that recruiter's going to sit there and screen and kind of look from the surface. Does this look like it's a fit.
[00:12:29] Mosah: So Bryan, there, there a lot of myths out there about recruiters, whether they be in-house corporate recruiters or, or sort of hired guns or agency recruiters, would you help demystify some of those things from the candidate’s perspective? You know, you probably get approached all the time by people who are nervous about either making outreach or who don't necessarily understand your rule and any general guidance for folks who are reaching out to recruiters.
[00:12:56] Bryan: So I think one of the myths is that it's a recruiter's job to find a position for a job seeker. That's more from like the agency side of things where say like an agency recruiter is tasked to fill a position. And so it's not their job to necessarily find a position for the candidate. It's their task to fill a job.
From the internal recruiter perspective, I think one of the myths is that the recruiters are very well connected to the position. If you think about just an average size company, you know, just say from a 100 to 500, you know, head count organization, if a recruiter is trying to fill, say 25 jobs, they're not going to know everything about each position.
They're going to know just enough of what the basics are. So they're not going to have that deep intellectual conversation about the industry. They're not going to necessarily know what you do on a day-to-day basis. They're going to be able to understand, are you a culture fit? Do you meet the necessary background on the surface to get pushed on to the hiring manager for a conversation?
[00:14:05] Mosah: Sure. And so that's a great segue into talking about screening calls. Screening calls happen for folks at all levels, probably less so at the executive level, but still that happens in a lot of organizations. Can you give some insight into what what's going on from a recruiter's perspective during one of those screening calls?
Are they working their way down a rubric? Are they asking the same questions of the same candidate?
[00:14:28] Bryan: So from my perspective right now, with the candidates I deal with, and then from the hiring managers perspective that I pass them on to within our industry, my initial screening calls are very much about, tell me about yourself.
I want to get to know you as a person. I also want to get to know you as a professional. Tell me more about what are you doing in your current job right now? I want to understand what do you like about your job? What don't you like about your job? Because if everything were perfect, we would not be on a phone call, right?
I want to understand a lot of the nuances of what you're doing in a day-to-day basis, but I also want to understand how has your job changed over the last six months or 12 months? But if you and I are to not move forward with this, what are you going to do different in your job for the next six or 12 months?
How is your job going to change? I give my notes to say a hiring manager and then that hiring manager will screen. And they'll probably ask a lot of the questions. Tell me about what you're doing on a day-to-day basis. I want to hear some of the metrics and some of the numbers you're trying to achieve in your position.
And a lot of times I will sync up with that hiring manager after their interview to figure out this is what I was told, does everything align is everything in sync.
[00:15:44] Mosah: So Bryan, you probably get contacted by a number of candidates from a wide variety of sectors who see that you're a recruiter and they think you can help them either network with other recruiters or get placed into one of your job openings. You share a little bit about what that experience is like for you and how you can, and sometimes how you can't maybe necessarily help everyone who makes outreach.
[00:16:09] Bryan: So I get contacted by a lot of candidates that are going to be within my industry.
Those are the types of candidates that I can help. And when I say help, it might be something where I can place them in the right position. But there are times where a lot of the candidates I have conversations with, I cannot help them find a job, but I can at least kind of point them in the right direction or path and just give some type of guidance.
You know, one of the common myths, I think that there is in the industry is that any recruiter should be able to help me in my job search. That is not necessarily a true statement. I think you want to find someone who specializes in what you do. Uh, they have some kind of expertise within your industry. A lot of times, recruiters who are very good at helping a certain industry have legitimate work experience within that industry.
When I have candidates contact me. It's a lot of me trying to find out what are you looking for? What is that next position going to look like what's missing within your role right now. And so when I have candidates contact me that are not within my expertise, I simply have to tell them I really can't help you because that's, that's not within what I do.
I wouldn't be doing you a service.
[00:17:23] Mosah: You talked about referrals and you talked a little bit about connections, both online and making inroads into other folks, what happens when I call you? And I say, Hey, Bryan, I've got someone who's in your industry who is a high-quality candidate.
[00:17:39] Bryan: So someone like yourself, you know, I mean, obviously, cause I know you, I trust you.
I know you're a true professional and I know what you're doing at top talent advocates. That's obviously something that I feel like it's been pre0vetted. So I know it's a person who is at least interested, they're engaged, they're motivated. These are all things that a recruiter would look for. And when it comes from a trusted source as a referral, that's something that I want to take on and make it one of my primary focus is because not only do I want to deliver for this person, but I obviously I want to deliver for you,
[00:18:15] Mosah: Bryan, I imagined in your work you're, you're having hundreds if not thousands of calls a year with candidates, you're probably emailing and texting with them all the time. I know you work often 14, 16 hours a day.
In your interactions with clients can you, can you share a little bit about the folks who make outreach to you or who you speak with who you can't necessarily help? What's some guidance for those folks?
[00:18:37] Bryan: So to the candidates that contact me and first off you're right, I probably would have thousands of conversations a year and you can obviously only help a subset of those conversations or of those candidates.
And a lot of times I'll qualify the candidates for, you know, what do you want to do? And what's your background. And I may not be the right fit. So what I try to do for those candidates that I can't help, I'll try to make an introduction to somebody else in my network that I think could possibly help that person, because that could be a great relationship or down the line.
But also, I might kind of encourage that person to maybe reach out to another recruiter that I don't know, it might be somebody with a different expertise, but also I might kinda let that person know to, Hey, you should probably reach out independently. You should apply for these types of positions and let them know that like a recruiter partnership is great, but it may not be for everybody.
And it might be something that you need to pursue this one independently.
[00:19:37] Mosah: In addition to speaking to thousands of people and emailing with thousands of people a year, um, you really have a unique vantage point in that you get to look at their content, right? You get to look at their tools for applying to jobs. So that's LinkedIn that’s cover letters, that's resumes. And so what I'm hoping we can do in the course of the next few minutes.
Is from a recruiter's perspective, highlight some of the things that jump out at you as, uh, necessities for those types of tools and things that jump out at you as red flags and things you want to run away from, or, or things that should not ever go on to those types of documents. So let's start with LinkedIn.
How important is LinkedIn to getting hired or recruiting?
[00:20:23] Bryan: I think it's essential. And obviously I use LinkedIn every day, use it on my computer. I use it on my, you know, my mobile devices and whatnot. I'm literally constantly sourcing even when I'm just sitting on the couch. So I can tell you that from a recruiter's perspective, it's a necessary tool.
Therefore, from a candidate’s perspective, who is searching, it's a necessary tool. I mean, candidates really should use LinkedIn to tell their own individual story and build their brands. And when they do that, it's really important that they know their audience. So no two LinkedIn profiles should be the exact same, like no two attorney should have the same LinkedIn profile depending on what your specialty is.
If you're a CFO of a certain level of company, like a fortune 500 company will probably look different than a CFO for a company with under a hundred people. But know the key words of your industry that are going to get somebody's attention because a recruiter is going to search off of keywords. And so when I look at someone's LinkedIn profile, I'm looking for keywords, but at the same time, I'm also trying to look at just very small specifics, like, you know, for me and the insurance and risk management industry, I'm looking for like, you know, Hey, what's your focus?
Is it workers' compensation? Is it property and casualty? Is it general liability? You know, do they know certain types of software like applied epic? These are things that I look for to know is this person going to be within the wheelhouse that I could help out.
[00:21:56] Mosah: You've touched on it a little bit, but can you describe what a good LinkedIn profile and presence is for a candidate?
What are some of those absolute essentials?
[00:22:05] Bryan: So LinkedIn does a pretty good job I think of helping you build out like a profile. I mean, if you go on to create one they’ll obviously walk you through the steps of creating one. That's not complicated, but definitely trying to make a very complete robust profile is what's going to help take your job search or just build your network to do a job search eventually to that next level.
And it's focusing on everything from having a good profile headshot to writing a really good headline to writing a summary, whether it's in the first person or the third person, just giving a little bit of a synopsis about yourself. One of the worst things that I think a candidate can do is just have a very incomplete profile, because if you have someone who's going to have to make assumptions on, are you the right candidate or not?
A recruiter is going to look at that and ask themselves, is this person even active on LinkedIn? Is this person even worth the reach out? Because a good recruiter is not just going to blast several messages to, you know, multiple people. They're going to fine tune.
[00:23:13] Mosah: Can you describe the process that you go through to utilize LinkedIn when searching for candidates?
So as a candidate, it's obvious that we build our profiles. You know, use our keywords to try to attract and highlight our areas of competence, but it'd be interesting for our listeners to understand what it seems like or what it looks like from a recruiter's perspective. How do you use that tool to find the right talent?
[00:23:41] Bryan: So many candidates may not know that LinkedIn has a paid service, a paid product called LinkedIn recruiter. And it's something that helps me as a recruiter. Where I can fine tune based on job title, whether it's their current job title or their past job title, a keyword search, anything within a geographical search of a certain mile radius, any target schools or anything based on level of education.
Also, I can search based on, you know, how many years of experience, which I think is one of the best things, because I would want to weed out people for a senior level position that only have two years of experience. So it helps build this like fine-tuned pipeline where I can go scroll through candidate’s profiles, and it'll show me where this person has met that match.
So when I build out a search and I do this almost daily, that's how I will kind of fine tune from, start to finish. And then I'll build a pipeline of those candidates and I'll kind of contact them, you know, throughout the day or throughout a week or so, but also one of the things that like this LinkedIn recruiter tool will do is that as people update or as they change their LinkedIn profile to meet that search, I'll get notified.
[00:25:03] Mosah: Can you shed some light on, on the advantages of being present and active in different LinkedIn groups. So sort of the online communities. And then if you might also share a little bit about content, it's not just about someone's profile often, it's about either thought leadership or content that they're posting or reposting.
Can you explain to us a little bit how that looks and feels from a recruiter's perspective?
[00:25:28] Bryan: So funny enough, sometimes a lot of LinkedIn groups, so I'm a part of some for like a global insurance and risk management, but there are some groups that actually don't want recruiters to be involved within that because it's nothing more than a poaching tool for a recruiter.
And some of the people that moderate these groups only want it to be for sharing of ideas and sharing of content and essentially building the network, building the presence, but also just kind of moving that industry forward with just good thought leadership and just thought-provoking ideas. But those LinkedIn groups are, I mean, they're great.
I mean, it's great to meet new people. It's great to build a network that way. It's great to learn something new that you wouldn't have learned before.
[00:26:12] Mosah: And Bryan, what about content on LinkedIn and individual candidates’ ability to highlight their skills, um, viewpoints connections through posting of their own content?
Is that something that you'd suggest to candidates?.
[00:26:26] Bryan: I always like to see someone's individual content contributions, because, and there's a number of things. Number one, it just lets me know, what are you interested in? What are some of the thought-provoking things that you can put out there and also lets me see someone's writing skills and writing ability and how they communicate at the same time.
I also love it when they share articles and give any kind of insight, because think about all the content, all the articles that you see on LinkedIn, you probably don't have time to read all of that, but it gives you a really good synopsis from someone's point. So I always look for people in terms of how active are they by the content that they share, what type of content do they share?
And from a recruiter's perspective too, I also look at, in the last 12 months, how many times did you post.
[00:27:11] Mosah: Why is that important to you? You know, I advise my clients that posting consistently and posting thoughtfully, it’s a good way to let the world not only know your viewpoint, but also in some cases to get noticed.
Right? You're showing up in people's feeds differently when you're posting that content. And particularly the use of hashtags allows people to draw an audience to them. So that's always been my view. And I'm curious to know how you see that topic.
[00:27:38] Bryan: I love it when I see people that post frequent, I mean, the more often than somebody posts it lets me know that they're, they're an active user.
And so if I were ever to engage with that person, they're more likely to respond and it may not be the response that I want, but they're more likely to at least respond. I've noticed the people who are more active with the content that they share, I am much more able to reach out to that person and at least get a referral.
So a lot of times those are the people that I'll at least approach and say, Hey, I got this position, I know this is not a fit for you, but who do you know in your network that might be interested in something like this? And I'd tell you that there are actually candidates or shouldn't say candidates, but there are people that I've reached out to on LinkedIn that I've never tried to place, but I've literally gotten three, four or five referrals.
[00:28:28] Mosah: Right. So it really is about being an active member of the online community. And, and some, some cases it's helpful to you as an individual. In other cases, it's helpful in, uh, getting noticed. And so if this is a fair synopsis, Bryan, when you're looking at people's activity, it's that activity that allows you to engage in them and potentially either find other candidates or for their own purposes, connect with someone who might be able to be helpful to them.
So Bryan, your database is filled with resumes. Um, your applicant tracking system is probably bubbling over with them and looking at thousands of these a year, and maybe you've crossed the mark of a hundred thousand in your career already. What's some guidance that you can give candidates and our listeners on what are the hallmarks of a high-quality resume?
What does it contain? What does it look like to you for our executive level jobs?
[00:29:25] Bryan: So to me, it starts with the very small things that someone may not look at right away, but I think formatting is critical and just making everything look very neat, very clean. And to me, when I see a very properly formatted resume, that is the first step that I look at to say that, hey, this, person's got some good confidence and putting like a resume together.
I also look for things that are just, you know, keywords or I guess, um, I've also heard it called power words in the industry. Just action verbs throughout the resume. That kind of let me know how did you contribute to something and say like a director level or above, or, you know, CFO or something as an example, I always look for not just the quantitative stats but I want to see what's the clarity behind those stats. When I read resumes, I like to be able to look at what this person contribute and how can I quantify what they did, but how does that benchmark?
[00:30:23] Mosah: Yeah, so that's a great segue. You know, I, I coach our clients on the star methodology for answering behavioral based questions during interviews and you know, the S standing for situation T for task A for action and R for result.
And I can't tell you how many people come to Top Talent with resumes that focus on the S the T the A, but not the R and really it's the R that someone wants to hire them for. And so you just brought up a really interesting point on the content of showing statistics and quantifying results and outcomes.
What are your thoughts around that? Making sure that you're highlighting those results, how do you view that.
[00:31:05] Bryan: So I always love it when a resume focuses on just the result. And then I can kind of look at what's the result, but then in that section of their resume could kind of help show me how did that person take action?
So if they said something like, Hey, I increased views on a website by, you know, 10,000. Great. I see that but then it also would tell me, how did you do it. Right.
[00:31:30] Mosah: So it's important to have both parts, but without the result, it's hard to see why that person deserves a second. Look, is that a fair assumption?
Absolutely.
[00:31:40] Mosah: So when you're looking at a candidates resume, what are some things that jump out at you as things not to do? I see resumes all the time that come to me from people who are making lots of money and really high positions that have anything from their photo on it to colored graphics, to lots of lines that segment it into odd formats.
Um, those are some of the things that jump out at me, but I'm curious to know from your vantage point, what are some of the things that are turn-offs to you?
[00:32:06] Bryan: If I ever see the words references available upon request. I laugh inside at first.
[00:32:14] Mosah: What about, um, Microsoft skills? Are those important these days Bryan?
[00:32:19] Bryan: I, I would be really concerned, uh, when people put that they know Microsoft office, I'm, I'm actually more concerned if someone doesn't know Microsoft office in 2022, but in all seriousness, one of my biggest pet peeves, I probably wouldn't see this for a manager level or above, but when people copy paste, from one job to the next, their job duties.
What you're telling an employer there is that you did the same thing at your last two jobs, and therefore I'm gonna do the exact same thing at your job. It just shows very little effort was put in your resume and your job search. I think a common mistake that I run into is if a candidate has really good credentials, they don't put a lot into their resume because they feel like my credentials are gonna carry me through.
Your resume or a cover letter is going to at least get you that initial interview, your interview skills should match, you know, your credentials and your resume should not be any different. Another common mistake I think people make is everybody wants to use like a resume template or people want to have a custom-made resume.
And for a lot of positions, it's going to sit inside an applicant tracking system and that applicant tracking system is going to parse your resume into this database. And so you want certain things to be pulled out like contact information or email. It's really important that it's not something that's like a scanned copy that can't be parsed properly.
And so I always tell candidates, make a simple resume, make it functional, utilize the white space well.
[00:34:03] Mosah: There are a lot of ways for people to share with a recruiter and share with a prospective employer details about themselves, resume, LinkedIn, cover letter. Can you share a little bit about the differences between those, how a recruiter or how a hiring company might view each and the differences between how each of those should be presented?
[00:34:25] Bryan: So I would tell candidates to not copy paste information from LinkedIn to a resume and to a cover letter. They should all be treated separately. I look at LinkedIn and your profile as kind of your own personal brand. It's your mantra. Tell us a little bit about you as a person. And the resume should be more about what are some of the objectives that you achieved in each position and how have you gone from point a to point B throughout your career?
A lot of people don't give cover letters as much merits, but I still read them, but I don't get a lot of cover letters for the position. It mostly about the resume and LinkedIn for me. But for a cover letter, I've always looked at it as just something a little bit extra about what you did in some kind of position that isn't on the resume or isn't on the LinkedIn, or, you know, what's your interest in the position or why do you think you'd be a good fit?
So that's how I look at all three and how they should be tailored accordingly.
[00:35:29] Mosah: So Bryan, lots of times recruiters make outreach, but they're also receiving calls inbound, if you will. So I want to talk a little bit about when it's appropriate for a candidate to connect with the recruiter, what's the best way for them to do that. How would someone make outreach to you? And when is that appropriate?
[00:35:47] Bryan: I get contacted by candidates all the time through LinkedIn or email. Obviously we have our company website and a lot of times people will go there and they'll see jobs and they'll send in their interest. When I talk to these candidates, a lot of times it's for an immediate opening, but sometimes it's for something where we kind of build that relationship over the course of a couple of months before I placed him or her into a position.
I always tell candidates when they come to me, I want to know what are you doing right now? What are you looking to do? What kind of change are you looking to make what's missing from your current position and what, what is that job satisfaction going to look like in your next step?
[00:36:25] Mosah: When can a recruiter not be helpful to a candidate, even if that candidate is a high-quality individual or, or might be top of their game, when would a recruiter not be able to help.
[00:36:38] Bryan: Well, two things. One is it's a recruiter's job to fill positions for a client. It's not just to get the candidate that position. So I will sometimes have candidates who will call me and say, Hey, I'm looking, I'm already applied to these five places. Can you help me get in there? Once you, as a candidate have submitted your resume to an employer, there's typically a window.
Of time where it's blocked, where the recruiter cannot approach that organization. So I have to tell candidates if you've already searched for a job for say six months, and you've blasted your resume to other recruiters, or you've blasted your resume to an employer, I probably can't help you. I can give you advice, but I will probably not be able to do something for you personally.
From a recruiter's perspective too, if a candidate has been looking for six months and blasted the resume out there, and nothing's happened with them that obviously raises an eyebrow, a red flag to know why have you been on the market for this long and what's going on in your job, sir?
[00:37:41] Mosah: Bryan, can you give a little bit of insight into what candidates need to be doing beyond talking to recruiters, recruiters have a subset of the job market, but they're not necessarily in control of all of it.
In fact, I'd say that they're in charge of by, by all accounts, probably 20% of it at the executive level. What would you do if you were a candidate looking for a job?
[00:38:03] Bryan: So, if I were looking for a job today, number one, I would make sure my LinkedIn profile is up-to-date and that it just looks good. I might even contact a LinkedIn profile expert who does, you know, profile reviews and they do like profile building.
That's really important. I would contact somebody like yourself, Mosah and say, hey you know, I trust you you're you have a high business acumen, you know a lot of people, what do you think of my profile? And I would literally pay somebody to help build that out. I would then, you know, create a resume and make sure that's up to date.
And I would also kind of start just like reaching out to some people in my network and say hey, I'm looking for X, Y, Z. But before I even do that, I would probably just have career conversations just to get my mind in the right capacity to know that, you know, I know that maybe I'm looking for a job or I'm going to start that career search.
I just want to have some of those conversations up front before I actually do it. I always tell candidates one of the worst things that you can do is just go start blasting your resume out there and start looking for a job.
[00:39:11] Mosah: How important is it for, for someone to work their network and to be connected with new folks who may or may not be recruiters?
[00:39:19] Bryan: It's important to connect with almost anyone that you feel could essentially kind of point you in the right direction and just give you good advice. I mean, there are people that when I got into recruiting, I was nervous because I hadn't done it before. I mean, I knew I was going to be successful because I hadn't failed in a job before, but I didn't know what that was going to look like.
So before I took a job in recruiting, I actually went out and talked to people that I knew who were actual recruiters. Who've been doing it for a while. Or I even talked to the ones that just recently made the leap within a few years and asked them what was it like? What was that transition period like from your past jobs?
What skills that you built helped you carry through? And to candidates who are looking in a similar field, the same thing, you know, someone who's taking the, going from a director position to like a vice-president or to a CFO position, they're going to be stepping into their first leadership job.
Talk to people who have done that before. And what that's going to look like.
[00:40:21] Mosah: And from those kinds of conversations, those, uh, informational interviews or that networking, is that something that you find and have observed people are able to network themselves into opportunities?
[00:40:34] Bryan: So a lot of times I think those candidates that get those next level positions, they're often coming from people that they know it's coming from within their network.
It's referring. You know, when you apply for a position you're sitting in an applicant tracking system, keep in mind that if that job is open, there's a chance that that company might've already selected the candidate they want, they know who they want to hire, but by law and regulation, they have to post a job.
And so when you're applying to a position, you know, it's important to know that, you know, well know as much as you can about the job, the company, but definitely you have to understand that most positions are going to be networked by people that they know.
[00:41:18] Mosah: Yeah. So one of the things that I do with my clients all the time is when they applied to jobs or they have target companies is help make inroads into those companies because it's people that hire people.
That's always been my sort of thought about the hiring process. And while there are recruiters out there who do a great job like yourself, of sourcing and identifying talent and who really do satisfy and meet a need. And you're one of the better ones that I know, how do you actually counsel clients or council candidates to build their network, because that's what I do for our candidates all the time is make introductions and help expand that network because it's going to be someone that hires them who more often than not, they've either been referred to or have gotten to know themselves.
[00:42:06] Bryan: So for me and the insurance and risk management industry, one of the biggest things that candidates can do is get a designation. And so when they go get a designation it's being taught or it's, it's being pursued through an organization where other people are doing very similar things. So a lot of times I've talked to candidates who have met friends or mentors within those in the classes to pursue those designation.
Also, you know, for example, in the insurance and risk management industry, there's just a lot of industry seminars that are being put on by other organizations or being put on by just thought leaders within the business. And I always tell candidates, go to those events as much as they can and kind of build that network and learn from people.
That's a really good way for these candidates to learn. You know, who's heading this up or who's a mentor in this program and where do they start? So it kind of gives them a good career roadmap to follow and just think about.
[00:43:06] Mosah: Bryan when, when the candidate is working with you to, to find their next opportunity.
And it's obviously, uh, someone that you want to be working with so that that relationship has been sort of vetted and they have all the right tools and they're, they're off and running. Can you share a little bit about how best to work with a recruiter?
[00:43:25] Bryan: I always tell candidates. One of the most important things you can do is just be transparent and be honest, because from the candidate’s perspective, understand that if a recruiter is trying to fill a position, they're having a dozen conversations in a given day or on a given week. And so I always tell candidates, make sure you're being very transparent. You're giving them all the information because you want to stand out amongst the other candidates that are, are being considered.
And so of course, coming to the table with, you know, a Solid LinkedIn profile, a solid resume, you know, knowing your numbers when you have these kinds of conversations, but also being able, just to clarify, you know, why do you want this position? What's making you interested in it? So transparency is key. I always tell candidates that just make sure upfront you're, you're giving as much information as possible because a recruiter, you know, they're obviously tasked to fill a job, but they want to know if they can help you.
And if they don't have all the information, they probably can't help.
[00:44:22] Mosah: Bryan, if I were to introduce you to someone who I thought of as being a high-quality candidate and in your particular sector, there's a term in the recruiting industry called an MPC or a most placeable candidate. Can you share a little bit about what that means to you and what you do with those, those individuals who you might consider to be an MPC?
[00:44:42] Bryan: So to me, uh, most placeable candidate is going to be somebody who number one is motivated. They have marketable skills, they are articulate. They know what they're looking for. They know why they're looking for that next step. But there's somebody that if you were to put them in front of a client, they're going to present well, they're going to interview well, they're not somebody who is just looking to take a counteroffer situation from their current employer.
[00:45:08] Mosah: Bryan I often get asked to keep someone's search confidential. They're in a role where they're happy they are making a decent living, but they know that they want something more. They just don't want everyone else to know that they want that. And so can you talk a little bit about the confidentiality that you deploy when someone is looking, who has a role.
[00:45:30] Bryan: I actually just spoke with a candidate yesterday who is a personal lines account manager. And they said the same thing. They've been with their employer for several years. They don't want their employer to know. And I let this candidate know I am not going to go blast your resume to new employers. What I like to do is I will physically call and email hiring authorities and HR contacts at agencies describing a person's skillset.
What types of accounts they handle? What's their volume, all the metrics that would go in to, you know, what makes a good account manager candidate and describe that person and then understand. Do you have a need right now? Do you have an opening or is there one on the future? Because I always tell candidates that when I can go market a search for you confidentially, you're not walking into a desk or a position where somebody else was unsuccessful, whether they were quit are terminated.
A lot of times, this is what gets employers motivated to create a position for somebody specifically. And I tell candidates you're going to be more successful in a position if it's created for you and not just a random opening.
[00:46:43] Mosah: That's a great segue because I have to tell you that the best outcomes for clients that I work with, come through a network who works to create an opportunity for someone because they identify the talent that someone brings to the table.
And even though they might not have had a job order or have created a job description for someone they're so impressed by the person or the ready for it, Bryan, top talent that's in front of them. They find a way to make sure that that person joins their organization in the right.
You gave some great guidance on what you would be doing if you were looking for an executive level role and obviously working with recruiters is important. But can you shed a little light on the significance of networking. Not only with folks that you know, but maybe folks that you need to know.
[00:47:32] Bryan: So, if I were looking for an executive position, I would spend a lot of time trying to build my network with people who are at a similar caliber or even a higher caliber than where I'm currently at.
I would spend time reaching out to them, getting to know their background, you know, where they came from, how they started, how they got to that next level. And a lot of times, you know, I've had executive level candidates tell me that when they reach out to people in their network, they're asking questions of like, you know, you know, who did you connect with?
What books did you read? What articles you know, were shared with you about companies who are hiring or just any kind of industry trends, analysis, forecasting.
[00:48:11] Mosah: Bryan, you've worked with lots of candidates in the insurance and risk management sector. I know when you were in house, you worked obviously foreign insurance company, but you also worked with a number of different types of roles.
Can you tell us about one of those stories that is inspiring for candidates about a job search or about someone that you were really impressed by? What, what qualities they displayed, sort of something that highlights how successful a candidate can.
[00:48:37] Bryan: I placed a director of risk management for a large construction company about two years ago.
And this candidate has since been promoted to the vice president of risk management for the overall organization. This candidate came to the table with a well put together resume, but also they had already contacted references that would most likely be, you know, reached out to during the whole entire process.
They knew what they were looking for. They were very well-spoken and articulate. They knew all of the numbers of like their past success metrics. They had a story prepared for what made them go from job to job. Those are things I was really looking for and why I was impressed, but really they were motivated.
So once they were able to interview with the client, they already knew everything about that employer. They knew all their financials. They knew who the executive leadership team was, and everything was just a smooth process from start to finish.
[00:49:41] Mosah: So know your stuff when you're, when you're interviewing or when you're pursuing
[00:49:44] Bryan: A hundred percent.
And one of the best stories is with that place I actually went back and placed the risk manager for that person. So once they got promoted, they called me a few years later. And just recently this past year I placed a risk manager for them.
[00:50:04] Mosah: Bryan, I often hear from clients the phrase, you know, finding a job is a full-time job.
And while certainly engaging the services of Top Talent Advocates can be helpful in alleviating elements of that and multiplying people's effectiveness in pursuing a new job, it really is quite an effort to find your next role often. I'm wondering if you might just share a few words about the effort or grit that candidates, regardless of whatever level they're at or regardless of the talent level that they bring to the table, what they need to be doing.
[00:50:41] Bryan: Just being relentless, knowing that it's a marathon, not a sprint, you're not going to find your ideal job in a few days. And if you do find them in a few days, I would ask a lot of questions up front. It's going to take some time and definitely it's going to take a lot of grit, but that resiliency factor that you bring to the table is part of, what's going to drive you to find that next best opportunity.
I always tell candidates that when you're going through this job search, be mindful to take care of yourself through this, whether it's, you know, not focusing so much, like not hyper focusing so much on it and trying to solve the problem immediately understand that it's going to take time, understand that, you know, building that network is going to take time.
[00:51:30] Mosah: Bryan, any parting comments or words of wisdom for our listeners.
[00:51:32] Bryan: No, I want to thank you for having me on, but, uh, mostly you've been a great friend for years and some of it I've always looked up to and I've always reached out to you for advice. You know, you're always been a person with a high business acumen, a great network here locally in Omaha, and just someone I've really, you know, known to, uh, grown to trust over the years.
[00:51:52 Mosah: Thanks, Bryan. Really appreciate it. Thanks for all your insights and sense of humor throughout. I know our listeners are going to benefit from that. And if someone wants to contact you, should they contact you through LinkedIn?
[00:52:02] Bryan: LinkedIn or email is wonderful.
[00:52:05] Mosah: Great. We'll provide that on the website. Thanks so much, Bryan.
Really appreciate it.
[00:52:12] Richard: Thank you for joining us on Hiring Insights. Remember, you can learn more about Top Talent Advocates and listen to other episodes by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and click on the Podcast link.
You can also email us at tta@toptalentadvocates.com.