On the second episode of this two-part series of Hiring Insights, Mosah Fernandez Goodman sits down with Tom O’Connor, George Zaharatos, and Lem Montgomery. Tom is the former Executive Vice President of Compliance & Ethics, EHS, ESG at Guardian Industries, George is the Principal-Global Data and Technology Leader for Trade and Customs at KPMG, and Lem is an attorney for Butler Snow, LLP. We focus the discussion on their insights into what it takes to be a successful candidate searching for an executive position in today’s job market.
What you need as a job seeker in today’s market to get hired.
As an attorney, looking for a senior level role, whether that’s a firm partner or going in-house, what should you know starting your search?
Social media plays a role in the hiring process today, but how much?
The best c-level executives have these common traits…
What NOT to say in an interview.
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[00:00:00] Richard: Welcome to Hiring Insights. The podcast that provides insight into the executive hiring process and experience, whether you are a job seeker, a people leader, a recruiter, an executive coach, or simply interested in talent, there is something here for you on the Hiring Insights. Today's episode is presented by Top Talent Advocates, where we advocate for executive and legal talent.
You can learn more about Top Talent Advocates, listen to other episodes, and hire great talent by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and clicking on podcast. Now here's your host for Hiring Insights, Mosah Fernandez Goodman.
Prior to the release of this episode, Tom O’Connor and Guardian Industries agreed on a mutual separation allowing Tom the time to travel south and spend much needed quality time with his ailing father.
Mosah: [00:00:57] Tom, Lem, George, thank you so much for joining us for the second portion of your podcast and your episode of Hiring Insights. I know our listeners are thrilled with what they've learned from you in the first portion of the episode, and now we're gonna be moving on to some insights for job seekers and insights for hiring managers, but for those who are just catching this episode, not necessarily as familiar with each of you as I am or as listeners to the first episode, I'm hoping that you might reintroduce yourselves to our audience. So let's start with Tom. Tom, who are you? Where do you work, and why do you love what you do? And then we'll work our way around.
Tom: [00:01:35] I am Tom O'Connor. I'm the Vice President of Compliance and Ethics, uh, eh and s and stewardship for one of Koch Industries recently acquired, uh, facilities or, or companies in, in Michigan. I've been with Koch for about 25 years. Been a practicing lawyer for good, gracious over 30 years now. And avid New York Mets fan and, uh, avid history reader. So thanks for having me.
Mosah: [00:02:00] Yeah, appreciate it. Thanks so much, Tom. Lem?
Lem: [00:02:03] I'm Lem Montgomery.
I'm from Madison, Mississippi. I'm a member of the Butler Snow Law Firm. We started in Mississippi, but we're now, 350 plus attorneys, 17 plus offices strong. We're primarily in the Southeastern United States, including a couple of international offices. Spent my career of 20 years at Butler Snow doing litigation and trial work.
Starting with products liability and civil rights work, litigation, and finally, catastrophic claims and defensive, catastrophic cases, litigation cases. So thanks for having me.
Mosah: [00:02:41] Thanks so much for being here, Lem. Appreciate it. And George.
George: [00:02:45] Hey Mosah. Uh, glad to be here. My name is George Zaharatos.
I'm a partner with the Trade-in Customs Group here at KPMG. I'm a licensed US Customs broker. I'm based in Atlanta with my family. Um, I've been with the firm 18 years. I've traveled over 30 countries visiting, you know, sites that produce goods that are imported into the US and exported from the US, diverse amount of experiences, uh, handling anything from imports and duties to export sanctions and embargoes, um, forced labor type of work with US customs.
Um, just very interesting stuff that keeps me going every day and I’m glad to be here.
Mosah: [00:03:29] Thanks so much. And I heard you're also a MET fan, is that right?
George: [00:03:31] That is right. That is right. And you're outnumbered today, Mosah.
Mosah: [00:03:34] Okay, alright, I’ll try not to hold that against you and throw you the Met friendly questions.
Okay. As high level of summaries you might be able to provide, could you just give us your sense for what the job market looks like now at the executive level primarily, but what do you see and what, what's your perception of it here in 2023?
Tom: [00:03:54] I think a lot of companies still deal with post covid issues, right?
We, where I am, you know, dealing with coming back to the office and the office environment is, uh, is a struggle for some, for some people. But look, connectivity is much different than it, than it ever was in the past, and like for my team example, we're scattered throughout the world. So staying connected with those individuals is, is absolutely critical.
As far as hiring is concerned, I think, um, certainly from our end, we're being a lot more pragmatic in our approach and how we look at positions that we need, who we hire, and that kind of thing. Really going through requisitions for positions and determining someone who we bring in needs to bring a comparative advantage to us to drive a competitive advantage. And everything that emanates from that is really what we're focused on. Not necessarily having a, a skill set that we're looking for, but we're looking for the right cultural fit, the right individuals to come and join us. And from my perspective, from my team, I don't have open positions I don't have closed positions.
If someone's gonna bring someone to the table, I will have room for them. I will find a spot for them. In the same sense, if someone's not aligned with our principles and our culture, then they really need to make those tough employment decisions earlier than later.
Mosah: [00:05:10] Tom, you, that's really interesting.
So you're the type of executive who, if you find the right talent, regardless of whether or not there's a quote unquote open position or a slot, it sounds like there's an opportunity there, which is something that our clients find often, right? Is maybe it's not a position that's been posted, but it's the right person who can add a tremendous amount of value.
So, the same question to you George and Lem. Hopefully hoping one of you, and maybe it's back to you, Tom can build on that concept of just finding the great talent for the right role.
Tom: [00:05:42] I've inherited a couple other capabilities since I've been at Guardian, and one of 'em, an employee was joining us before I inherited that, that particular capability.
But when she got here, I realized that her skillset didn't lend itself to what we thought we needed. A position was almost created for her based on her skillset and her knowledge. She's one of the best employees that I've got right now. In fact, my three top employees that I've got all came from different roles, different responsibilities within the organization, but they had that drive, they had that vision, they had that connectivity with our businesses that are absolutely critical.
So yeah, we've got room for anyone who's willing to contribute.
Mosah: [00:06:20] George, Lem things to add?
George: [00:06:23] Uh, I do, I think it's different for talent coming straight outta school than it would be for executives. You know for new entrants to the market the job market right now, I think, you know, there's a need for mentorship.
There's hands-on learning, you know, so I do see more of our new hires wanting to be in the office. Folks, you know, that were able to live through the covid, you know, work from home period, found that that may be a, a more optimal state. I mean, you know, aren't returning as fast but the younger, you know, just coming out of college group is uh, taking more to the fact that it's easier to learn when you're physically together and able to work out problems to solutions.
On the executive front its versatility, I think, being able to navigate everything that's going on right now. I'll give you an example and you know; I did do some research before to see if KB&G had done any specific surveys on talent and recruiting.
And we had a survey that was sent out, it's called Tax Reimagined 2022 Perspectives from the C-Suite. And it did include a lot of the C-suite saying that they look for candidates that have, um, data and analytics experience, cloud experience, things that you know, you wouldn't have really heard of 10 years ago.
And I think, you know, the versatility that executives need to have is to be understanding of how you could use these different tools so that they can meet objectives in the marketplace today. And you know how you can actually review the people's work when they're using those tools. Right. How do you know if the data and analytics that are used are right.
So there's, there's, um, a lot that executives need to do today that we didn't need to do you know, 10, 20 years ago. And you know, I think our range has to be a lot wider in order for us to succeed. Where before it was like you could be extremely focused and deep in a certain area and still be, you know, great at what you do.
Today you need to focus on being a people manager, a data manager, um, you know, making sure to understand how diverse your team is and, and the benefits of it. And, and being able to navigate what we're still working with, which Tom already mentioned, which is you know, people not wanting to be in the work office, in the traditional workspace on a daily basis.
Mosah: [00:08:58] Lem I'm gonna ask you a little bit of a different question. About half of our client base are attorneys, and that's about the listenership to this podcast. So I'm wondering if someone is looking for a more senior level role, perhaps a partner with a portable book of business, or sort of that senior level associate, what advice would you give to them as they're starting their job search?
Right. They're looking to join a firm like yours or, or looking to maybe even go in-house, which I know, you know a lot of clients who probably make that transition at some point in their career, as Tom did and, and other folks. Um, and then we'll come back to Tom and George and hear from them about how they wanna manage or how they think people should manage their job search.
But what simple, clear advice would you give to someone who's starting that search?
Lem: [00:09:42] Well, I can tell you all law firms at times hire based on need. We do it, other firms do it. So if there's a need for attorneys to service clients, if there's a need for an attorney with a certain practice, firms will go out and recruit those attorneys with that practice or with that skill set.
And that's one way you market yourself, is you can look introspectively at what you're able to offer, whether it's a certain client or client base or a certain skill set, and try to find a firm that matches that need. You know, right now, uh, firms are projecting a need to hire. I think it's probably a you know, a good time for attorneys who are looking to make a change or looking to find a, uh, a career at mode.
But I'll tell you, our firm, it's always, you know, we don't just hire based on need. Uh, sort of to Tom's point, if we find the attorney fits our culture. We'll make that higher, whether there's a current need or not. Uh, for our firm, it's always been about our clients' needs and interests first. It's all about client service.
Client service is preeminent. And then there's also, there is a culture here at our firm that it has to be a match when we make a hire. So when we find attorneys that have the right kind of practice, the right kind of skillset, they're a cultural fit and they frankly fit into the family, the law firm hires, but it's based on practice group needs a lot of times.
And so, for example, we just found a young lawyer who's starting tomorrow, who was a perfect fit, and she's coming in and we wouldn't have passed her up. You know, it was, it's such a good fit. We would've hired whether there's a need or not. And so I would say the advice would be, you know, understand what your skills are.
Understand what you have to offer and be honest about that with both, with yourself and with the potential employer, the law firm. But also listen carefully to law firms when they talk about their culture and the way they service clients and the way they interact with one another and compensate one another.
The firm principles, usually firms are founded on a certain set of principles are on a certain culture, and make sure that you fit with that and make sure that where you want to be and that's the culture you want to be in. And then if it is, make sure they understand that you're interested and that you're in for that.
And that's the way I think, uh, firms marry up with new talent. That's the best way if you're looking for, you know, long-term retention of talent and attorneys who are gonna be lifelong members, that's usually the way it starts.
Mosah: [00:12:19] That’s tremendous. Thanks so much, Lem really appreciate it.
Tom: [00:12:22] Real quick, and in that score, I will, the advice that I would give to someone is understand fully. Understand yourself.
Why is it that you're looking to make this career change or this job change? Is it money? Probably not. It's probably about appreciation. Are you appreciated? Do you appreciate the company? Are you committed to them? Are they committed to you? That's usually what drives these things, but really, soul served there and make sure that what you, what it is that you're looking and where you're going, that you're dissatisfied where you are and there's an opportunity for you.
Mosah: [00:12:55] So for those of you who are hiring talent and looking to bring on talent, curious to know how, how you think social media plays a role in your process and your decision making. Any tidbits to share? Tom, Lem?
Tom: [00:13:09] Well I could, I could tell you Mosah from someone who was a, a bit of a novice in the area.
Where my children are, route experts in it. I will tell you that anything that is out there in the ether on, on social media will be found by your prospective employer. Not, not that you shouldn't have an opinions, you should have some strong opinions. Just make sure that you understand that the position you take may not be shared by everyone else.
We look at that. I certainly look at that. I want to know an individual. What they're holding themselves out to be. Now, from my perspective, I don't, to be quite honest, I don't find social media, whether it be LinkedIn or any other social media platform to be terribly useful in my analysis as to whether someone should join us.
It, it more is a detractor than it is a benefit.
Mosah: [00:13:55] Got it, really good point. Thank you Tom. Lem, anything to add on the social media?
Lem: [00:14:00] I personally think social media is an invaluable tool for applicants, but it's just that. It's just one tool. It opens up lines of communication and contacts that just didn't exist, uh, when I was involved in the job search.
Uh, it's an excellent research tool. It's a way to see people who are in various industries and see what people are talking about and what they're interested in, uh, what's trending about employers and job seekers, though it's a real finger on the pulse of the job market and industry groups that shouldn't be ignored. But I think social media alone is just not a substitute for networking and personal contact and traditional job application, uh, followed by in-person interviews.
You know, when it comes to the actual process of finding and pursuing a job opportunity at a specific company, I think the employer wants their applicants to follow their process. And I think, they invest in hiring through their own channels and you have to work within those channels to be competitive. So I would say use it, uh, learn from it, use it for research.
Use it to make contacts. You want to be serious about, uh, marketing yourself for a job, especially with a specific company. You've gotta go through their channels and you've got to go through the classic application process that's out there. I'm not sure that you know, your profile on LinkedIn as, especially as a new young applicant has that much of an impact on helping you get a job.
I mean, it needs to be, you know, you, you need to pay attention to it, but, while it, you know, it needs to be there and it, you know, it can be somewhat of a help. Although not too much in my opinion. I think it, it can, if you're not careful, a major detraction depending on what you decide to post.
So if you're in the job market, you gotta know it's an absolute a hundred percent guarantee that employers are going to research your social media accounts and see what you have out there. And if you know things that, that portray you in a negative way, you gonna definitely hurt the job search. And so you've gotta pay attention to that.
Mosah: [00:16:01] This question's really focused, um, and directed towards Tom and George. A lot of folks that are listening to this episode either wanna move in-house as an attorney or rising through the ranks, most likely the type of people who are your clients, George. So I guess I'm looking to understand and to have some light shed on the fact of, you know, your views and insights into the hiring process.
So what, what are some of the things that each of you are looking for to gauge talent and understand about a candidate when they're in front of you? What are, what are just some of those things that you're always looking for?
George: [00:16:35] Well Mosah, I could start and most, you know, just so you know my team is made up of attorneys, could be, um, trade attorneys, human rights attorneys, CPAs, previous customs officials.
So really diverse group. When I work with my team and they connect with our clients. It's because of their experiences and it's because of, you know, um, the fact that, you know, our client base, the executives we work with, they’re not all the same. They all have their own story and their own journey.
What's important when I see the folks that we're working with, um, c-level executives, is that they all have a few traits that are common for me. When I speak to 'em, they're extremely good listeners. The other thing is that they ask really good questions. They're alert, they're present.
The other thing that's important to me that I see from all of them is that they're empathetic. They actually, you know, take time to think about what is it that their team is thinking and how is it that their team could function better? I think Tom, made a point earlier that said, you know, you leverage strengths.
It's not that people are no good generally, it's that maybe they're not put to the right task. And so I think a good leader, you know, identifies folks and is able to build them up and, and pull 'em up as they're rising up, to be able to address, some of the objectives at hand. And not everybody is perfect at everything, so you need to be able to recognize when your team needs to be adjusted slightly to, to meet those answers,
Mosah: [00:18:25] George, you know, those answers are almost word for word some of the guidance that Bill George, who, I'm not sure if you're familiar with him or not, but former CEO of Medtronic and, uh, Goldman Sachs, board member Target. He was our first guest on the, on the podcast.
Um, it’s funny to watch that advice come full circle, right? And then, um, you know, being empathetic and figuring out how to maximize their teams in a really holistic way that I think that's consistent from, from not only your vantage point in the consulting world, but also from his vantage point.
So thanks so much for that opportunity to bring it full circle. Tom?
Tom: [00:19:00] Yeah, Mosah, so just building on what, what George mentioned there, you know, by the time a candidate gets in for the interview, right, you've got the skillset set, it's come across, we know you've got the skillset. You've got it. I want to hear it though.
I want to hear the passion that led you to where you are sitting before us and having a conversation. Uh, it's important that you don't fake you. Don't come in with something you think we want to hear, be you, be genuine. But connect us to those opportunities that have led you to where we are and what we need.
A lot of people call that now, the behavior-based interviewing process, and yeah, we engage in that. We certainly do. But, but it's to drive the conversation. I'm not so much interested in the situation, behavior, and outcome of this specific story you're telling. I wanna know what impact it had on you and how you came to be and how these, these competing interests arrived at your decision making and what you learned from it, particularly the ones that you, that you failed. Be conversational, be present, and don't fake you.
Mosah: [00:20:05] Couldn't have said it any better, Tom. So great. That's the authenticity and genuineness of people, um, is easily detected, right? So you, you wanna be yourself and come and, and come and present yourself exactly as you are, cuz that's who you're gonna be working with and that's how you wanna be known and perceived.
So, great, great words, great insights there. Thanks Tom. I'm gonna start with Lem and we're gonna kind of do a rapid fire here on, um, what is the biggest red flag you see when you're talking to someone? Not necessarily coaching them on, on how to avoid it, but what are some of those-oh, I can't believe someone said that.
Or I can't believe someone, you know, views themselves in that way. Just some horror stories. So, Lem, the litigator over to you. What's a red flag you've seen in your experience?
Lem: [00:20:54] Yeah. So, uh, I think the general way to say it's just an immature approach to the position. You know, candidates who come in and they're more concerned about what office and what town they're gonna be in.
You know, we've heard 'em say, because I like to, yeah, I like to go see bands and so I wanna be in the Nashville office. You know, nothing, it's less about the law firm, more about location. Hyper focus on compensation over, you know, what the law firm does. It's not that those are unfair questions.
You know, we encourage everybody to be direct. You can tell the difference in one direct conversation about that versus it consumes the whole interview. We hire lawyers with the expectation that they'll be partners and if they come through and say, hey, I'm just in this gig for a couple of years, then on to politic, you know, that that's a major red flag.
So it's, you know, again, we hire with the expectation that these are gonna be our partners one day. I want to hear why you want to be a lawyer. You've done all this work; you've graduated in the very top of your class. You're clearly able to, why do you want to do it? And why do you want to do it here? Is it because of some frivolous reason that doesn't matter to us?
Or are you really invested in what we're doing and who we are? And so answers that shy away from that, answers that invest in us and tell us you're a fit for us and we're a fit for you, and you have a passion and a reason to be doing this that fits with our firm's purpose and culture, that's on the money.
That's what we're looking for.
Mosah: [00:22:23] Perfect. Thanks so much Lem. George or Tom, horror stories, insights, things to to keep in mind?
Tom: [00:22:30] I’ll hit this real quick. Um, there's a fine line between confidence and arrogance. I know we've all, we've all met the individual who's come in supremely confident, but it bleeds into arrogance.
It's always those, you know, those behavior-based questions that I, that we talked about earlier where the individual took a big pile of mess that somebody else created and fixed it. And that's the only thing you ever get. You never get the real self-inflection of how I could have improved in what I did. And arrogance comes across and it's a killer.
Mosah: [00:23:03] George?
George: [00:23:05] There is a sense of an investment that we make in folks as well, and we want that investment to play out. Um, and you, you don't want someone who's going to come in thinking that they know more than everybody else. So mine is, is a little bit different in that I, I always look for whether or not folks are gonna be good team players.
Um, are they gonna be collaborative? Are they gonna work together with my team properly? Are they gonna work together with our clients properly and be able to you know, solve problems, come up with solutions in a collaborative way. And I think it goes, you know, similar to what Tom had mentioned, which is, you know, if you find that you're asking questions and you know, folks are very much, um, interested into only what they can achieve or what they could tell others to do without, you know, some team building type of, um, experiences, sometimes that would be a red flag.
Mosah: [00:24:09] Final question of, of the episode, uh, for those contemplating their job search or looking for a new opportunity, what's the best piece of advice you could give them today? Tom, you wanna take this one?
Tom: [00:24:21] Yeah. I'll take it Mosah, thanks. And thanks for, again, thanks for having us. This has been been a great dialogue. Great discussion.
Look when I, when I created the vision for the compliance access program where I'm at, um, it was built on four pillars, and that is action, urgency, ownership and respect. If you can have a vision without action, that's like having a guard dog without teeth or, or decaffeinated coffee, quite frankly.
You have got to drive it. You have got to have the action and the urgency to drive the company's vision or your own personal vision. Own it. Get after it, no excuses. Action, urgency and ownership are absolutely critical. And also doing that with the utmost respect for everyone else that you've come in contact with and that you're working with.
Mosah: [00:25:07] Great, great, great words, Tom. Thanks so much. Lem?
Lem: [00:25:11] Have good detailed conversations and expectations and what you want out of your career with your potential employer. Uh, be honest about who you are and seek great mentors. Pay attention to who you're gonna be working with and make sure that they're gonna be willing to invest in you.
Mosah: [00:25:30] Wonderful. George, question to you.
George: [00:25:24] Yeah, I think there's, there's something for everyone and you know, you may not get the perfect job, but I think you point in the right direction. Go seek where it is that you want to be spending your time where you think you'll have passion, where you'll have interest, will you be engaged?
Eventually you could hone that in and actually, you know, progress towards more and more of what you want to be doing. I think it's a progression. It really is. My advice to folks is stay interested, stay engaged, work hard, and, um, pay it forward. When you help people, they'll help you. I learn more from my staff and my managers than I do from most folks.
I feel like it's because that there's an open dialogue with them, and they're always looking out for me just as much as I'm looking out for them.
Mosah: [00:26:25] Wonderful.
Lem: [00:26:27] And I would add one more thing. I'm a, I truly believe that there's always a fit. Uh, I've been blessed with an what I think is an extremely, uh, interesting career. It's been one for me. I've enjoyed every minute of it. There's a career out there for, for every applicant that they can enjoy. So don't sell yourself short. If you're not interested in what you're doing, life's too short. So keep at it, find the fit, be honest when you market yourself and, uh, I believe with time anybody that's willing to put in the work can get there.
Mosah: [00:27:00] Wonderful guys, I, I know I only knew one of you coming in, but I feel like I know, I know each of you a lot better now, and I really appreciate it. So thank you very much.
Richard [00:27:12] Thank you for joining us on Hiring Insights. Remember, you can learn more about Top Talent Advocates and listen to other episodes by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and click on the Podcast.
You can also email us at tta@toptalentadvocates.com