Lisa Lang joins Mosah Fernandez Goodman on this episode of Hiring Insights to discuss her diverse legal background, career advancement, relationship building, and the benefits of utilizing social media. Lisa is the Vice President and General Counsel at Ohio Northern University, her varied background spans private practice, nonprofit, academia, and six years in the United States Army, first as a legal specialist and then as a legal non-commissioned officer. Lisa is an author and passionate about building community and being a resource as she shares her journey and experiences in the legal world. The topics discussed in this episode:
“You can’t connect the dots looking forward, you always have to connect them looking backward.” Steve Jobs
Don’t be so fixated on a specific goal, that you lose sight of opportunities that may exist right in front of you.
The relationships that you build and develop are key to not only doing good work and having trust, but also for advancement and opening up opportunities.
How do you develop a personal brand, a reputation and a persona outside of your organization?
Opportunities that LinkedIn and social media can open up beyond finding a new role.
If you’re utilizing LinkedIn, it’s not as much about the content you're posting, but the relationships that can be built from commenting and engaging with others.
When building relationships, give without expecting anything in return.
Career advancement isn’t always a straight climb up in title and pay, consider lateral moves that will provide experience for the long-term strategy.
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Mosah: [00:00:47] Lisa, thanks so much for joining us today. Really appreciate having you on the show and really thrilled that you’re here. Welcome to Hiring Insights. Let’s start out and just share a little bit about your career path and who you are as a person. Maybe just give us some background as to who you are for the folks who don’t already know.
Lisa: [00:01:07] Yeah. So, I am currently serving as Vice President and General Counsel at the University Ohio, Northern University. I live in a village of 5,300 people that’s centrally located in the middle of absolutely nowhere. And I spend my days hiking and kayaking when I am not at work and prior to my work today as a university general counsel, I did everything from serve in the United States military as a paralegal to be a civilian paralegal to an associate at an law firm to work for a regulatory entity to where I am today, which is at a university.
Mosah: [00:01:47] Thanks so much, Lisa. I'm looking forward to shedding some more light and gaining some insight into those various positions. And you've got a really interesting background. You've got military. You've got legal. You've got this persona online as well. I know that's not maybe a thing in a category but tell us a little bit about you personally and kind of how you got to where you are.
Lisa: [00:02:07] Yeah, you know, whenever I talk to anybody about my personal career journey, I always talk about the Steve Jobs quote that you can't connect the dots looking forward, you always have to connect them looking backward.
And the reason I feel like that quote really encapsulates my career path is I made a lot of choices along the way that didn't always make sense to me or others, but I don't think that I would be where I am today had I done anything differently than what I did do. And like you said, you know, my background is, is really varied and diverse.
I started school wanting to be a lawyer, but then thinking teaching was a better fit. I went through college to do that. And then at the last minute, I decided that's not what I wanted to do and I thought being a lawyer might, but I also knew and understand the kind of work that it would take to put in to do that.
And the thought occurred to me that maybe I would try something that was related to the legal field, but not being a lawyer to help me decide whether I wanted to do that. And I started taking some paralegal classes at night after having graduated with a bachelor's degree in English. And one night a recruiter came in from the U S Army and the recruiter had indicated that they were looking for what they were calling a quote a higher caliber enlisted soldier, and so they were trying to find people who had some paralegal classes or experience to be a military paralegal.
So, my first foray into the legal field was not as a lawyer, it was a paralegal, and it wasn't a civilian paralegal, it was a military paralegal, and I spent six years in the military in that role.
Mosah: [00:04:00] So we've worked with a lot of people say in the JAG core, I can't say that I've worked with someone who's come through that background that you have and, and not just because of the ascension that you sort of have experienced, but you've also, I mean, you've worked in private practice, you've worked as a GC for a large nonprofit and, you know, in an academic setting. Looking backwards now, what is that connect the dot linkage?
Lisa: [00:04:25] Yeah. Well, and you know, what's so funny is that I feel like all of these different experiences I've had, like I said, have prepared me for the role that I have today. And so having been in the military, for example, helped teach me some of those, I hate using the phrase soft skills, but I don't know what else to use.
I learned resiliency, grit, self-determination, the ability to teach myself. I learned leadership. So, there's a lot of things that I did while I was in the military that helped prepare me for the next role. And, um, the next role for me was going to school at night and then working full time during the day and learning how to juggle that and be able to do those things.
Those are all the kinds of things that I need to know how to do in my daily work today. I need to be able to sit down and know what it is I have before me. And I have to prioritize because I’m, but one person and I can only get so much done in one day. So, you know, each phase of my life and each phase of my career has helped prepare me for the next.
Because I was working as a civilian paralegal, when I went to school at night, it helped me understand the law and what lawyers do at a very basic operational level so that when I transitioned in the same law firm to be an associate attorney, I had a better understanding of what it was that I was doing. So, for example, when I was a paralegal going to school at night, what was really cool for me is we would do removal papers, for instance, where you remove a case from state court to federal court.
And I got to actually do the pleadings to do it. Then I was in class learning about what it was and why you do it. And so, by the time I was an associate and attorney, I understood how to do it, why to do it, and I was pretty, pretty good at doing it. So, I moved from one phase of my career to another phase. And that's just one example of how I've learned how to do not just the thing, but all the things that surround the thing.
And it makes me understand what I do and why I do it better. And I think as a GC, we talk about how it's important to be a strategic partner. And we need to know and understand the operations of our business. And I feel like because I came up as a paralegal, then I was an associate attorney, and then I worked for the attorney general's office, and then I worked for the Kentucky Department of Education, which was a regulatory body, I learned all of these different entities that I interact with on a daily base basis now, so I think I'm a better strategic partner as a general counsel in an education environment because I have done litigation for an educational department, that I've worked for an educational department regulating educational entities like the one I work for.
So, it's just all of these experiences when you take them all together. I really think it gives me the ability to have a perspective that very few other people have who are in my role.
Mosah: [00:07:38] Yeah, that's great, Lisa. So, one of the things, you know, we're often contacted by folks who are in a law firm environment looking to go in-house.
Some folks who are in-house are looking to make a move from, say, a corporation to a more of a non-profit setting. But you made an interesting move in going from being in private practice to working at a governmental entity, and then you've sort of stayed in education in this non-profit world. Can you give us a little insight into what that's like and what drives that kind of decision and maybe what the experience is like?
While, it's not unique in that you're the only one doing it. It's certainly not the most common track for a lot of folks, but I'd like to open people's eyes up to those types of opportunities. So could you share a little bit more about the outside counsel to large nonprofit legal work?
Lisa: [00:08:25] Yeah, so you know, it's what's so funny I think what the mistakes some people make is they are so fixated on a specific goal, that they lose sight of opportunities that may exist right before their eyes.
And so I never set out to do what I'm doing now. I don't want to say it happened by accident, but to some extent it happened by chance and it just happened to be a whole series of career moves that it was opportunity that just showed itself because I was doing what I was doing.
So when I moved from private practice into the attorney general's office. And just to show how the trajectory can happen in unexpected ways, when I moved from private practice to the Attorney General's office, the Attorney General's office, at least in Kentucky, functions just like a law firm for governmental agencies.
So my job when I was at the Attorney General's office was to represent in litigation, governmental entities. And what I did when I worked for the Kentucky Department of Education as a client, when they were my client is I learned about what it was that they did. And I learned forward and backward. It wasn't just about defending the Kentucky Department of Education in litigation.
It was me understanding what they did, why they did it, how they did it and what they wanted as a result of the litigation. And so because I developed that deep and close relationship with them, at some point they decided that they wanted to ask the attorney general for a waiver. And they did not want to have the attorney general's office provide the legal representation anymore they wanted to bring their own in-house counsel.
And when they called me to let me know that that had been the decision, you know, at my initial response was, was disappointment because I really had gotten to the point where that was almost all the cases I was handling was just for this one agency. And so I was, I was sad to see them go, but the reason the HR director called me was to let me know that they had created the position that they wanted me to apply for. It was almost like with tailor-made for me.
So I didn't go seek it. I got it because I built a relationship with this one client and got to the point where this client would come to the AG's office and say, I want Lisa Lang to handle all my cases. So I went there because of that.
Mosah: [00:11:00] So I guess the two themes I'm picking up on as far as advice for those in transition are really sort of roll up your sleeves and understand the inner workings of a particular sector or a particular company and make sure you have as much context as you can. And then the relationships that you build and develop are key to not only doing good work and having that trust but also in terms of advancing and opening up new opportunities. I don't know if that's a fair summation or a paraphrasing of what you've been sort of shedding light on But those are two of the factors that I’ve noted.
Lisa: [00:11:38] Yeah, that's absolutely accurate. And you know and the thing is I think that because I work so closely with the Kentucky Department of Education I almost I think they got a preview of who I was or would be as an assistant general counsel because I knew them back and forth. The people that worked there trusted me.
So if I had to present them for deposition, a lot of people are apprehensive by a lawyer, especially like an outside counsel. But if you start working with them and understanding them and you build that relationship and that trust That was really what helped facilitate my movement from the Attorney General's office, which was essentially an outside counsel setting into the Kentucky Department of Education.
And I also think my background, because I started out, I went to school, I spent four years learning to be a special education teacher. So I also had an understanding to some level of what the people with whom I was working, what they did on an operational level in a way that the other attorneys in the Attorney General's office did not have.
Mosah: [00:12:42] No, I think that's great. Thanks for that very, uh, impassioned and detailed look at what it takes to be successful. So, no, I appreciate that so much.
So, let's talk a little bit more about some of the things that you do outside of your normal 9 to 5, if there is a 9 to 5 day in your life. You have a blog, you have a whole other online persona, and while we'll talk a little bit about social media and its usage in career management and navigating job searches, tell us a little bit, it's called Why This, Not That, um, tell us a little bit about Why This, Not That and its sort of purpose.
Lisa: [00:13:27] You know, when it really began, uh, I started using LinkedIn prior to Covid, probably in 2019, I started using it for the purpose of learning from other lawyers about things, um, related to in-house counsel. There was not a lot back in 2019, but, but there was some, and it was beginning to grow. It wasn't until Covid when I really started to use LinkedIn and view LinkedIn in a very different way.
And part of the reason I did that was because with COVID you know, I was working in my university by myself. My whole staff, my whole team was at home and we were constantly navigating changes in the legal environment in terms of executive orders and what it meant for our school and what it is that we needed to do operationally.
And I was turning to LinkedIn to try and find resources with other people who were in the role that I was in to see what they were doing and how they were handling it. I didn't find a lot of resources. So what started to happen was I started to do a lot of blogging and writing about what it was that I was experiencing and what it was that I was learning from that experience.
And part of the reason I wanted to do it is because I feel like the practice of law is practice. And part of the problem is you're always afraid of making a mistake or having a misstep. And so part of what I wanted to do is be able to share my missteps with other people for two purposes. One, maybe to help them avoid having a misstep or two, maybe letting them know sometimes you do make a mistake. Sometimes you do have a misstep, but it's not fatal.
So part of what I wanted to be able to do was to provide a resource that I did not have myself in navigating the work that I did. And maybe part of it comes from the fact that I do come from a family of teachers and I was trained to be a teacher.
So I think that while that's not what I did as a profession, it's still very much part of who I am and what I do. And so I do a lot of mentoring and I do blog and I write things about, okay, yeah, with this, do this, do not do this. And sometimes it was because, because I did it and I'm telling you it ain't gonna work.
Mosah: [00:16:04] So for the, I guess just maybe succinctly for a lot of our listeners, they're either looking to bring in talent or a decent number of the folks that listen to the show are concerned with managing their own careers, navigating to the next step. What are some of the suggestions, I guess, maybe just a few words, if you would, on tips and tricks people should use in advancing their career.
We talked a lot about the relationship building and context. Um, it sounds like here, it's also a degree of vulnerability and willingness to learn, but what are some of the tips and tricks people might use to advance during their career in your opinion?
Lisa: [00:16:41] I feel like lawyers in general need to start embracing a different mindset.
They need to utilize and leverage social media. I think we have been trained to see it as something that has a lot of drawbacks, and it's not something professional lawyers do. And I think lawyers can do it and should do it, and there's an ethical way to do it. I also think, especially if you're an in-house lawyer, I think we think about building a brand for our company, but we don't think about building a brand for ourselves.
And it's about developing a reputation. And a persona outside of your, of your organization. And what I've been so fortunate within the two universities that I have worked in is that my, both my presidents have been very supportive in what I've done in terms of building my own personal brand. Because I think that you can build a brand and that brand can not only help you and help you in terms of your career and your reputation.
But if you have a good reputation and, and a very strong brand, it also reflects favorably on your employer. And it's nice to find employers who view it that way and not all employers do.
Mosah: [00:17:58] Couldn't agree with you more that that's really well said so you mentioned LinkedIn, you know, we provide job search services for candidates What are some of the things that you would recommend?
Services or offerings in addition to LinkedIn, people utilize or consider availing themselves of as they're navigating their career.
Lisa: [00:18:18] Well, I do think a lot of it has to do with relationship building building a network of people in the area that you're interested in, and then talking with them about what it is that you want.
And I'll give you an example. I mean, it is somewhat LinkedIn, but if you're interested, for instance, in being a contract professional or procurement, Laura Frederick, how to contract, she is prolific on LinkedIn, and she also has a network of people that, that hire people in those roles. And she has a online job board where people can apply for positions.
And it's going to conferences and talking to other people in your field. There's a lot of things that you can do just through that relationship building and joining organizations that are filled with people who do what you want to do and who you can associate with, and they can help make connections for you to land that next role.
Mosah: [00:19:24] So let's talk a little bit about something you've just touched on already is networking and social media. So., I remember seeing you start to post roughly around the timeline that you outlined earlier and you started showing up in my feed because about 60 percent of our clients, 67 percent of our clients are attorneys.
I myself am an attorney and the content just made sense to the LinkedIn algorithm, right? So, boom, Lisa Lang every day, right? So, so Lisa, I know you better than, than even just our, our few conversations. But I guess how has that really opened up opportunities for you? I mean, not necessarily, although perhaps job opportunities, how has LinkedIn and the work that you do, maybe you start with just generally how you utilize it, but how has that been beneficial for you?
Lisa: [00:20:19] You know, what's, what's funny for me as I would not credit LinkedIn for any job that I've ever gotten. But what I can credit LinkedIn for doing is opening the door to doing something that I'm really, really, really enjoying that I don't think I would have otherwise been afforded the opportunity to do.
For an example, there was a time when I would never have imagined somebody ask me to do a CLE presentation, I would never have seen anybody asking me to write articles. I would never see anybody asking me to be the lead moderator for an entire conference. So there, there are things that I am doing now that I in a million years would never have pictured myself doing.
And I'm really, really enjoying that. And it's supplementing what I do now. And it's also reigniting other passions in me than just the practice of law. I like writing about the law. I like teaching the law. I enjoy the moderation duties that I've had. Most recently, I went for Marcus Evans summit, I went to Amelia Island, and I was the lead moderator.
I introduced the speakers. I did two or three-panel discussions that I led. And I also did a fireside chat with another lawyer. It was just a lot of fun. I enjoyed it a lot. And I don't know what it's going to necessarily do in terms of like my career or a job, but it was really, really fun and it helped bring out in me an excitement and a passion for what it is that I do beyond just what I do on a day to day basis.
Mosah: [00:22:16] So for someone who's looking to utilize LinkedIn, it sounds like it's basically made the world smaller for you, right? In a good way. It's made it more intimate. So, for those who might be looking for a new role or for those who are trying to cultivate a network with the hopes of building good relationships, certainly, but also looking to potentially advance themselves in new ways.
What are some of the quick, few word answer, but maybe several bullets to the question, what should someone be doing on LinkedIn? What, like, just practically, in your opinion, in your experience as someone who's been using it now for a number of years, effectively, what are just some of those very obvious things that people should be doing, but maybe not obvious to folks who don't use it as well as you do.
Lisa: [00:23:01] Yeah, you don't have to post every day. It's about building authentic relationships and being able to connect with people who share similar interests with you. So, what I did to begin, I actually wrote a chapter in a book where I talked about, you know, starting out as a lurker. And what I mean by that is I would read things, but I would never comment and I would never react.
I wouldn't do anything. I would just come in, I would read it, and I would go on. And then after a while, I felt bold. And I still remember one of my first comments I made was, if you know Alex Su, to some is a little bit controversial, former lawyer, now tech, I don't know, evangelist.
Mosah: [00:23:47] He was a guest on our show. Yeah, I know Alex.
Lisa: [00:23:51] Yeah. So, so Alex posted something about some experience that he had with big law. And for whatever reason, that particular post got me really fired up. And I just, I don't know what came over me that day, but I, my comment was maybe almost as big as his post.
So, I commented on his post and he reached out to me later and said, oh my gosh, I think that I got more reactions to your comment than I did for my entire post. So, he and I started having offline conversations and I will say I encouraged him to do TikTok. Let me just say that.
Mosah: [00:24:30] You're taking credit for that one?
Lisa: [00:24:32] I'll take credit for that. You tell Alex I think I helped him launch him into TikTok.
Mosah: [00:24:36] That’s actually going to be the headline of this episode. Yeah. Lisa Lang Stewart's Alex's social media prowess.
Lisa: [00:24:43] Yeah, that's right. That's right. But he was really great for me because he said, Lisa, you have something to say and there are people who wanna hear you say it.
So, he was really encouraging. But like I said, it's not about doing the post, it's, it's more about the fact that I commented and then started building a relationship with him. And I started commenting more frequently on what it was he was posting because it really resonated with me. So, I think that you don't have to get out there and you don't have to be the one posting, but you can get out there and you can comment on those people who have content that really means something to you and really resonates with you.
So that's one thing that I did. Um, something else that I did, you know, I haven't even looked at it in a very long time, but LinkedIn had, and maybe still does have a function where you can write an article and post it on LinkedIn. And I had never written an article before, you know, or posted it anywhere. And so, I did my very first article.
Um, I think it was more than a legal advisor or something, but anyway, I posted it and when I posted that article, I had Vera DeVera, at the time was with Ironclad, and she saw my article and she asked if she could take it and if she could post it in their general counsel community. And then after that, she started asking me if I would be interested in doing a blog for Ironclad.
So, you know, I, I started with these little things. I started commenting on posts. I did one article. I've never done another article on LinkedIn. Again, I did one and it took off. And that Ironclad blog turned into eventually me getting an Above the Law column. So, you just start little and small. You build relationships with people and that's how you take off is building those relationships, doing things small, doing what you're comfortable with and doing it consistently over time.
Mosah: [00:26:47] And I think, you know, Lisa, the way that you phrased that, we do a lot of work with clients on their social media as they're beginning or in the midst of their search. And the advice you gave is great, whether or not, and applicable, I think, entirely, whether or not you want to be someone who just grows their network for purposes of networking and maybe looking for their new role or just helping expand their network.
Or if you're interested in potentially becoming an influencer to a certain extent, right? But the same methodology, it's more just about scale and sort of ultimate goal. That advice, I'm going to have to go back and listen to the way that you phrased it because I think it's entirely appropriate regardless of the outcome that you're seeking.
What are some things that people should not do? Probably not remain a lurker forever, but what are some of the things that you see people trip up on, or perhaps not take full advantage of who they are presenting themselves? What are some of the common social media or specifically LinkedIn mistakes you observe folks making?
Lisa: [00:27:47] The one thing I would say is approaching anything you do as a transaction. I hate the word networking because networking feels like a tit for tat. You do this. I do that. I give, and then I get, and that's absolutely not the way I think this works. I think what you need to do is you need to give freely without any expectations.
So, part of what I've done with LinkedIn, for example, is sometimes you'll post about something or someone and you shine a light, not on yourself, but you shine a light on somebody else and what it is they're doing. And you do it, not because you expect anything in return, but just because you want good things for that person.
And I read a book, I think it's called Super Connector. And what it talks about is the psychology of people of reciprocity. People have this need to feel like they need to pay you back. So, you don't go out there and do something because you expect to get something back. Because the funny thing is that when you give and you give without expecting in return, and somebody is the beneficiary of that goodwill, that person really, really wants to find a way to be able to pay it back to you.
So, I just think for those people that get out there and say, I'm going to post because I need to go out there and I need to generate clients. And if I don't land X amount of clients and X amount of time, then social media is not working for me as a marketing medium. And what I would say is that's because you're going out there with the wrong mindset.
And I used to tell Alex Su too. He and I started this relationship, you know, talking about the posting and our experiences and stuff. And at the time he worked for Evisort? and I agreed to do a demo of Evisort. What was so cool about that is I trusted him explicitly. And so when I got on that call with him, when we talked about what it is that my organization needed at the time, we both kind of agreed that while he had a good product, that product didn't fit for me.
And I said, you know, Alex, God help me, if there's anything that I need, you will sell me because I trusted him because of that relationship that we had. He could sell me anything.
Mosah: [00:30:18] Can he sell you on doing TikTok videos?
Lisa: [00:30:18] No, one thing he has not sold me on. Though, I will say, um, Flo Nicolas, and John Lindsey didn't have me do a TikTok video, but they got me to wear a Cher wig and sing You Got Me, Babe.
So, that's about as close to TikTok. Yeah, that's as close to TikTok as I've ever gotten. But, but don't, don't do this as a transactional thing. This is about being authentic, building relationships, and not expecting anything in return. Because the irony of it is, actually, the more that you give without expectation, the more you get back.
Mosah: [00:30:55] Couldn’t have said it any better.
You know, our, our clients, they're looking for jobs, they're out wanting to ensure that they're positioned for the job market as best as they can be and to attract the folks who are going to connect them and avail them of those opportunities, I guess, in today's market, what advice would someone who has the breadth and depth of experience that you have, what advice to those looking for new roles?
Would you, would you give today?
Lisa: [00:31:31] Yeah, I think that people sometimes get hung up on titles and money in my career. When I went from private practice, and then I went to the Office of the Attorney General. As you can imagine, you don't make a lot when you're at the Attorney General's office, as compared to what I was making as an associate.
But that move was such a great move for me, not only because it positioned me for essentially getting an in-house role. The other thing that working for a state entity did is I got to do things that I did not get to do when I was in private practice as an associate working for a partner. I, for the first time, was handling my own cases.
So sometimes you have to take positions that will help provide you the experience base, but it may not have the status that you want to have. It may not pay what you want it to pay. When I took that job, it was right before the market crashed. You know, it was not easy. I could hear people saying, oh but you know, you were lucky you could afford to do that.
I would, I could not afford to do that. I did not know what I was going to do when I transitioned. from private practice to the attorney general's office. But the attorney general's office afforded me opportunities and gave me exposure to people who eventually were able to help me move quickly up the ladder.
It's almost like sometimes, sometimes you have to jump up off of one ladder and then you get on another ladder, and you can move up that ladder a lot quicker.
Mosah: [00:33:14] Are you analogizing one's career to Donkey Kong?
Lisa: [00:33:19] Exactly, exactly. You go off one and then you try another one. Um, and you know, I just got to the point where I was not happy doing what I was doing in private practice.
And I wanted to have a new start and so I had to be willing to take a drop in pay and maybe take a role that some people would have thought had less status. But the irony of it is, is that I think because I made that decision, the ceiling for how much I could make went up exponentially because it was a bigger and taller ladder.
And I enjoyed what I was doing. I think people are good at what they love to do. If you go in every day and you think it's a chore and you hate it, don't keep doing it. Go find something that you enjoy and don’t worry about the money and don't worry about the status, because I think that if you love what you do and you bring that passion to it every day, I think that you end up being able to advance a lot quicker and more opportunities open up to you because you make those choices.
Mosah: [00:34:22] You definitely have a very interesting background and I'm sure our listeners are curious to take tidbits away from every step of your career journey. Thanks again.
Lisa: [00:34:31] Thank you very much for the invitation.