Brian Potts | Changing the Landscape for Law Students and How to Translate Rejection in a Job Search into Motivation

Brian Potts, Partner at Perkins Coie, joined us to provide insights into the changing landscape for law students, how to translate rejection in a job search into motivation, and what you can do to maximize your job search strategy. He is also a writer whose has been featured in Forbes, Wall Street JournalPoliticoBloomberg, the Wisconsin State Journal, the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, the Weekly Standard and author of the book The Jobless Lawyer’s Handbook: How to Get Hired as a Lawyer. He is an inventor, a professor and helped found The Legal Mentor Network, the first nation-wide, free mentorship program for law students and recently barred attorneys.

  • It’s rare that anyone regrets going to law school, but the system is failing to adequately prepare law students for the job search, among other things.

  • Advice for those headed to law school or even considering a career in the legal field.

  • Do you know what rejection is? It’s proof that you’re trying.

  • The Jobless Lawyer’s Handbook: How to Get Hired as a Lawyer, a lot of the information (resume, networking, interview prep) is relevant to anyone, not just young lawyers.

  • The Legal Mentor Network: transforming an informal network to fulfill a need into a non-profit serving thousands of mentees.

  • When searching for your first job or even later in life, stop and strategically think about where are you the most marketable? Can you be flexible geographically to get a steppingstone to your dream job?

  • 70-85% of all jobs come from someone you know. You HAVE to network.

  • Working with third parties, coaches or professional advisors offers the benefit of more than just advice, it provides accountability.

  • [00:00:00] Richard: Welcome to Hiring Insights. The podcast that provides insight into the executive hiring process and experience, whether you are a job seeker, a people leader, a recruiter, an executive coach, or simply interested in talent, there is something here for you on the Hiring Insights. Today's episode is presented by Top Talent Advocates, where we advocate for executive and legal talent.

    You can learn more about Top Talent Advocates, listen to other episodes, and hire great talent by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and clicking on podcast. Now here's your host for Hiring Insights, Mosah Fernandez Goodman.

    [00:00:45] Mosah: Hi everyone and welcome to another episode of Hiring Insights. I’m your host Mosah Fernandez Goodman and today’s episode continues to be brought to you by Top Talent Advocates.

    Today, I’m joined by Brian Potts. Brian who is a partner at the law firm of Perkins Coie, is also an inventor, writer, professor and helped found the Legal Mentor Network. Which is an online, nationwide, and actually international networking group for practicing attorneys who help mentor and guide young, meaning five years or less, attorneys across the country.

    Brian has done creative projects such as helping start a legal influencer network, he’s created and ETF and created a keyboard for lawyers.

    [00:01:35] Mosah: Brian, welcome to the show.

    [00:01:38] Brian: Thank you. Thanks for having me. It's great to be on.

    [00:01:40] Mosah: So let’s start off with a brief introduction. Maybe tell us a little bit about yourself, what you're reading, what you're watching, what teams you're cheering for, what you're following. Let us know a little bit about yourself.

    [00:01:51] Brian: Okay. Well, since you mentioned teams, I have to start there because I grew up in, outside Louisville, Kentucky, and I'm an enormous Louisville basketball fan. I'm a fish outta water. I'm in Madison now. So I'm in Big 10 country. Which is really boring basketball, but I am a lawyer, partner at Perkins Coie in Madison, Wisconsin.

    I do a lot of other stuff, including started a bunch of companies, started a legal mentor network, which I'm sure we'll talk about. And you know, what am I reading? I'm actually reading the same 15 book fantasy series as my 11 year old daughter, it's called Spell Monger. And I've been reading it for two years.

    Think Game of Thrones, but 15 books. And it's kind of a cross between, it's not as maybe, uh, adult as Game of Thrones, but it's kind of a cross between Game of Thrones and Harry Potter.

    [00:02:52] Mosah: Thank you for trusting enough to keep that on, on the recording. I appreciate that, Brian. Thank you.

    [00:02:56] Brian: Oh yeah, I mean, I'm a nerd. I can't hide it.

    [00:03:00] Mosah: Well, you're, you're a nerd, but you're also an author and you wrote a book called the Jobless Lawyer's Handbook, How to Get Hired as a Lawyer. And you've interviewed hundreds of law students and lawyers. Where's the process broken? How are we failing law students or just recent graduates in general.

    And what, what kind of needs to change in that?

    [00:03:21] Brian: That's a good question. I mean, there's a lot that's working. I don't wanna, I'm not one of these folks that's anti law school. I'm a big fan of any education. I find that, I mean, I truly believe that almost no one who goes and gets an education when they're 80 or 70 says, man, I wish I really hadn't gone to law school.

    However, I do think law schools in particular and their recruiting departments could do a lot better job educating young law students and you know, their alumni about how to get a job. The problem we see is, like you said, I've talked to hundreds of law students is, you know, they go talk to their professors who most of whom haven't actually been in the legal profession.

    And then they go talk to their law school recruiting office, which is full of people who wanna help them. But again, maybe don't have a lot of real world experience. And you know, that is the whole realm of people that these law students are relying on to tell them how to get a job.

    And there's a whole bunch of skills. That can, you know, everything from networking to just understanding sort of the progression of a legal career that can really help young lawyers and law students that they just seem clueless. And again, like you said, I've talked to hundreds of law students and young lawyers. And so I can say based on my experience, talking to all these folks, they're clueless about a lot of really important facts, that, you know, I wish I had known in law school too. And so that's really why I wrote the book was to try to give some honest, open perspective about what it's like and the things you can do. Maybe that your law school's not gonna tell you.

    [00:05:15] Mosah: That's really interesting and insightful.

    So, you know, there are tens of thousands of students in law school right now across the country. And not everyone will go on to work at a Perkins Coie in fact you've famously posted and have been seen by over a hundred thousand people now, your famous rejection letter from your current employer, not everyone's gonna go on to have those experiences that are sort of highlighted when people are fantasizing about law school, right?

    The big firm or the glamorous in-house job, which may or may not ever become reality for students in their career. What, what advice would you give to people who are contemplating going to law school, even in advance of getting in, into the quote unquote legal system?

    [00:06:00] Brian: Do it. I'm a, like I said, I'm a huge fan of law school and the education you get there.

    I mean, sure, probably doesn't need to be three years. Yes. The ABA has, and others have created a whole bunch of barriers that maybe don't need to be there. I mean, my view is they should be teaching law school and undergrad. There should be a degree. That's how most countries do it, but that I don't think that's gonna change anytime soon.

    The bottom line is law school, almost every class, unlike your undergrad education, almost every class is useful information. How does taxes work? How do corporations work? How does our government work? How are laws written? You know, these are all things that frankly, a lot more people should know, but there's always the naysayers about law school of you have to take all, you know, it's really expensive and it might not be economically worth it and blah, blah, blah.

    But they can't put you in jail for failing to pay law school loans. I used to quote that a lot when I was in law school and they can't foreclose on your brain. It's not like you default on a house, they take your house. So really when you think about it, there are very few people, I think, who go all the way through law school and then 20, 30 years later in their career, think they shouldn't have done that.

    [00:07:22] Mosah: I know your, your focus and your, your professional background is within law. Would you say that some of the advice contained within your book and which we'll talk about probably a little bit later in the episode is applicable to folks beyond law school students? In other words, the investment in education and the utility of one's degree needs to be managed in part by the student themselves, but also by the educational institution in helping guide them towards a practical outcome, such as a job. Is that a fair statement or any comments on that?

    [00:07:56] Brian: Yeah, I mean, that's, that's a fair statement and a good point. And I, I mean, for example, why don't law schools teach a class in how to get a job as a lawyer? Why don't law schools teach a class about how the business of law works? Seems relevant, given that all these lawyers are going out into the business of law, but instead of teaching you the business of law, they teach you corporations.

    Which is about, you know, other people's business and how corporations can get structured, etc. etc. But I think there are a lot of things that can be improved upon certainly, but again, at the end of the day, I mean, I think law schools are doing the best that they can. And it's really, like you said, it's the individual person's responsibility to, you know, go out there and find that job.

    And one of the biggest problems I see is frankly, people spend 20,000 hours of their life in classes from kindergarten through law school and they do that so they can get a job. But then when you go ask them, what are you doing to try to actually get that job?

    They're like, oh, I go to OCI or I'm, you know, looking for jobs online and sending in a few applications. And if you look at how much time they're spending, it's like a couple hours a week max. And so I think the amount of time that people spend actually trying to get a job needs to increase significantly across the board.

    Even if you're the top student in your class, the more time you spend trying to figure out what job is correct for you and networking, the better your trajectory is gonna be. It doesn't matter where you start. It's all about what can you achieve from where you started?

    [00:09:39] Mosah: When we talk to our clients, um, and we've worked with a few students actually who wanna engage our services.

    We often talk about hustle, grit, and focus. With respect to hustle, I wrote a piece on LinkedIn about my over 600 job applications for my first summer associateship. Maybe not the recommended path as to how to spend your time, but certainly focused on, on the hustle element of it. What advice would you give to a law school student or really maybe any, any graduate school student who is in pursuit of that job?

    What sort of three words jump out at you as the characteristics or qualities that need to be displayed in that search?

    [00:10:19] Brian: I mean, I like your three words. They're absolutely accurate. You have to hustle. You have to have grit and by grit, I mean, there's a title of one of the chapters in my book or a sub sub chapter called The More You Get Rejected, The Better.

    And I, 100% believe that rejection is nothing other than evidence that you're trying hard. So I'm not sure I would change your three words. I think you're right. It really comes down to how much effort, hustle and effort are pretty similar, but how much effort are you willing to put in? And how thick is your skin?

    You know this because you've been a lawyer for a while, but lawyers, all we do is get criticism from other people. That is part of the job. I'm a partner and I still send out a brief or something and five people send me red lines back saying, you know, don't do this, do that, do this, do that. That's like a daily occurrence and so many people are not used to that, cuz that's not a normal thing in most careers. But this sort of ability to take criticism or take advice from other people and then change yourself and be okay with that, that is really what being a lawyer's about and it, and it translates to the job search. You gotta be okay with people, ghosting you if you spam email them. You gotta be okay interviewing at 50 places or sending out 600 resumes and getting 599 rejections because you only need one job.

    [00:11:57] Mosah: So Brian, you spend a lot of time in your book and in some of your social media posts, your thought leadership pieces, what have you, focusing on advice for law school students. Is much of what you advise law school students on applicable to both practicing attorneys and other executives post-graduation?

    [00:12:15] Brian: Yeah. So the book is designed for basically law students and anyone who's been out for less than five years, but many, many of the chapters including How to Prepare for an Interview, How to Network Effectively, all these things that can help anyone get a job. I mean, really when I sat down to write the book, a lot of the inspiration for things to do on the job hunt came from my experience, raising money for startups.

    And when you raise money for a startup, you go and you know, I'm like, hey Mosah, you might be interested in investing in my startup. I don't say that. I say, hey I'm launching this startup, I'd really love some advice about my startup and what you think. And you're a really well accomplished investor and invest in a lot of startups, would you meet with me? And then I sit down with you and it's this dance where like, you know, I want money. I know I want money, but that's not what we talk about. We talk about the company and you give me some advice.

    And then what happens is I take that advice. I go back and I change my pitch deck or whatever. I take a few more steps in the company. And then I follow back up with you in three weeks or a month. And this dance, we call it like the people who raise money, joke that it's like dating when you're raising money from, you know, angel investors. But all of that process is incredibly applicable.

    It's the same thing when you're trying to sell yourself as a lawyer to people, you reach out, you ask for advice, not a job. You talk to people, you follow back up with them every month or two, let them know what you've been doing, how you've been progressing forward. You know, hopefully tell them thanks for the advice that's helped lead to X, Y, and Z.

    And you're staying at the top of their mind. You're showing them that you're a go-getter. And so a lot of the tools are applicable across any job type.

    [00:14:15] Mosah: Brian you've created something great, it's called The Legal Mentor Network. And I know we’ve experienced the new online platform over the course of the last several weeks, which provides incredible opportunities for both mentors and mentees to connect. I know the platform focuses on law school students and those five years out, much the same way that your book does.

    I'm hopeful that you can shed some light, not as much on the legal network, because I encourage all listeners to go and explore that network, but I'd love to know your insight into why that network is important and what it represents as far as connecting people to help share advice.

    [00:14:55] Brian: I mean, as you alluded to this, all sort of happened to me.

    I posted my rejection letter on LinkedIn at the beginning of the pandemic. It's a rejection letter from Perkins Coie from 2002, 20 years ago. Like you, I sent out hundreds of resumes, hard copies, and I got hundreds of rejection letters. I'm a weird animal so I thought I'd keep 'em for 20 years. I don't know if you still have yours?

    I don't.

    So I thought it would be funny to frame the one from Perkins Coie since I'm a partner at Perkins Coie. So I did that and then I posted it on LinkedIn with a note that says law students, if at first you don't succeed, try, try again. And 5 million people saw it and tons and tons of people started reaching out to me, asking for mentorship and advice.

    And so I just have always had this sort of personality that if somebody asked me to meet, I'm gonna do it. And so I started to do it. And over a couple months, I mean, I was booked out three months doing an hour, a day, two meetings, you know, 30-minute zooms with different people. And I started posting stories on LinkedIn about it, and all these people came out of the woodwork, practicing attorneys, including you asking, you know, hey-how do I help? And so I created this informal mentor network where over a thousand people from law students to young lawyers, I just did a couple posts on LinkedIn, reached out to me and said, oh, I'd love to be hooked up with a mentor. And then I got 250 mentors from LinkedIn and I just made a spreadsheet and started hooking people.

    And so that's what led to the creation of The Legal Mentor Network. It was essentially my informal. This happened to me and people obviously want it to, well, how do we do this going forward? Because I can't sit in my office all day looking at a spreadsheet and emailing individuals. I mean, I would love to be able to do that, but I would probably go crazy.

    So to answer your question, The Legal Mentor Network was created by the need and not the other way around. It sort of just happened naturally through LinkedIn. And now because of zoom, a law student in Texas could email you if he was interested in moving to Nebraska and say, hey-what's the legal market like there, and you hop on a zoom and it takes 30 minutes.

    And it's just a much easier way to facilitate introductions and, and talking between young lawyers and legal professionals.

    [00:17:21] Mosah: And I would respond to that student, tell them that Big 10 sports are far superior to any other particularly now, since it ranges from New Jersey to Los Angeles. That's a whole different podcast Brian

    [00:17:35] Brian: Yeah. Yeah. Your basketball improved. I will say that with the recent announcement.

    [00:17:40] Mosah: so let, let's talk a little bit more about sort of playing the number game, if you will, in pursuing a job. And I view this and we counsel our clients on taking much the same way that a financial advisor would focus someone on having a diversified portfolio.

    Sometimes you want high risk high reward. So if you're a senior executive and going for the top job, somewhere, that may not be the most likely outcome for anyone's job search, but you wanna be pursuing your goals. Similarly, you want to have some blue chip stocks taking that investment portfolio analysis, and you probably want some bonds or some cash in your portfolio.

    We analogize the same thing for someone's job search. And so one of the questions that I've been wanting to pick your brain about is sort of the odds of securing an interview or getting your name out there and maybe this is on the topic of hustle. What advice would you you give to someone in order to create the best odds of getting out there and getting that interview?

    What practical steps, regardless of whether you're a law school student or a seasoned professional, just thematically, what are those discreet steps?

    [00:18:43] Brian: So you use the sort of investment analogy and in my book, I talk about geography a lot and geography matters and law students rarely think about geography.

    So that's one, and I'll come back to that in a minute, but that overlaying with the fact that you will be most marketable three to five years after law school and that 35,000 law students graduate every year. Those are basically the competitors nationwide for legal jobs, because they're the same vintage as you.

    Like it or not, lawyers are, you know, generally fall in the realm of where did you graduate from law school and that's how you get slotted in firms and in careers. And so that's the only time in your entire life that all 35,000 people of your vintage are going to be applying for jobs is when you graduate from law school.

    So it's one of the hardest times for you to get a job. So when you put all that stuff together, what does that mean? Well, the actionable steps are pick four or five geographies and have some safety schools have safety geographies. Don't just go for New York, Chicago, LA, and DC, where 70% of all law students and young lawyers want to go get jobs. Because the name of the game is to get your resume in the top five so that you can get an interview maybe top ten.

    Right? And so if you apply, I love to use Florida as an example. Florida has 12 law schools and the highest ranked is University of Florida. If you go to Cornell and you're applying to New York and Boston, you're gonna be in a pile of resumes where Cornell doesn't look very, it doesn't stand out as much.

    If you apply to Miami, which is a pretty good place to live for a couple years. And also has a lot of big firms, you’re gonna stand out. You're probably gonna get an interview and the name of the firm on the top of your resume. Nobody cares what office you're in. Right? And so you go to Miami for two years, and then when you're in that three to five year period, that's when you go back to New York or California or Chicago and get your dream job.

    So there are some things I, I think people just need to be a lot more strategic about where am I the most marketable? You know, am I willing to live there for a couple years? And as you know, the legal market has changed dramatically, even since I've been out from you go work at a firm and there's a lot of like loyalty to the firm to now everybody's moving around all the time.

    [00:21:06] Mosah: Absolutely. So, so let's talk a little bit about how that initial job search sets you up for success. Talk a little bit about if you would Brian, the, the long term or the staying impact of one start to a career, how that ultimately in more situations than not impacts the next 10, 15, 20 years of either practicing attorney or just an executive's experience overall.

    [00:21:32] Brian: You know, my own personal career is a great example.

    So when I graduated from the law school, I tried to get a job at every Amlaw 100 firm and got formal rejection letters from every Amlaw100 firm. But in thinking back on it, I was applying to New York, DC, and maybe Chicago at the time, the only place I got a job offer at a good size firm was in Kentucky.

    So I went there, right? Now, had I stuck with New York or DC? I would've started at probably a much smaller firm, a much less recognizable firm. My firm was like 300 lawyers, or actually it was 150 to 200, I think at the time. But now it's more like three hundred. So like the fact that I started at a bigger name, bigger office firm was 100% because I went to Kentucky.

    I got that on my resume. I stayed there only a year. And then I went and got an LM and then I came to Madison, Wisconsin, and I sort of slotted in a firm a little bit bigger, but not an AMlaw 100 firm. And then, you know, in that three to five year window, I got a call from a recruit. Hey, an Amlaw100 firm in Madison, and that's what they said, is looking for someone almost exactly like you.

    And I'm like, there's only 1AMlaw100 firm in Madison at the time. Now there are two or three. And so I knew what firm it was. And I was like, well, shit, I should at least interview. So it's just an example, I mean, this same thing could be true again, if you're the top law student in your class, where you start, it will impact where you end up.

    You really need to work hard to start in a place that at least on paper, so that you're moveable and marketable, allows you to move up further in the chain. The same thing could be true for a for somebody who's been out 10 or 15 years. I mean, if you can be flexible on geography, you open up a whole different world of possibilities.

    And if you're a deputy GC in New York, but you can get a GC job in Cincinnati. Right. You go to Cincinnati for three or four years as a GC, and then now you go back to New York and you can, you know, move up the chain and it's not just geography, but that's a really good example of a way to sort of distinguish yourself kind of like a safety school.

    [00:23:50] Mosah: Brian, you're famous for your advice for law school students and for the start to a prominent legal career. I'd love to have you give some insight into job seekers, process and experience generally. Regardless of whether or not you're an attorney, can you share a little bit about what you see the value in continually networking and building relationships is and how does that help someone during their career and what opportunities can that provide?

    [00:24:18] Brian: So I used to make fun of all of the people who are more senior than me that said you need to network. And now I'm one of those people. So there have been lots of studies and if you don't believe me, Google it, that show that 70 to 85% of all jobs come from someone you know, or have met. And so if you aren't meeting a lot of people, then you are hugely limiting your opportunities. Full stop.

    Now, does that mean everyone needs to meet 50 people a week? No. But it does mean that if you're really focused on your career and you want your career to progress, you need to always have a new funnel of new people you are meeting and you are networking with it. It doesn't always have to be professional.

    It's just literally about knowing people. Lawyers are consultants, they're plumbers. If you don't know a plumber exists, you don't hire a plumber. It's the same thing even in many other fields, you really just have to know a lot of people and they need to think of you fondly. That is the best advice I can give for anyone in their career that and do nice things for other people.

    So one of the things that I like to do and I've known to do is, and, and I think I've even done it for you already is every single person I meet, when I first meet them, I think of all the other people I know. And I think is there anyone I know that could help this person? And then when I hang up, I introduce them via email. And it's a really easy thing to do.

    But then the two people think fondly of me, if they hit it off and if they don't, they're not gonna be mad at me for. And so I think, you know, network, network, network.

    [00:26:19] Mosah: Perfect. No, that's great. And you've actually developed a framework for networking that has basically five goals. Would you share those with our listeners?

    [00:26:27] Brian: Yeah. I mean, goal number one, I think is like I said, meet lots of new people and I sort of set two to three zoom meetings a week and then it doesn't have to be zoom, but it could be in person. Zoom is easy. And I have a whole chapter about how to get people to meet with you, but don't be afraid to spam them and ask for advice.

    It's absolutely okay. No one is gonna get mad at you for emailing someone or being emailed and being asked for advice. Another one is going out and having a sort of lunch or actual social event with any professional once a week. It's not that hard. Go to lunch. Go play golf, go get a drink. It really doesn't matter what it is.

    And it doesn't have to be one on one on one is the best. It could be a small group. Um, but, but try to make sure you do that once a week. Again, it's not a huge amount of time.

    [00:27:27] Mosah: Never eat lunch alone.

    [00:27:30] Brian: Right. Well, that's a good idea. So, and then do nice things. Try to do, like I just said, take an hour a week or a half hour a week, sit in your office or wherever you like to do work and think about who are the people that I've recently met or who are the people that I know. And is there anything I can do to be helpful to them? Maybe it's hey, I just saw this case that came out and it's relevant to your industry. And I forwarded to them.

    I mean, that's kind of the, sort of normal lawyer, client development stuff you do. But it could also just be like hey, I know this person just moved to a city and I know somebody else there that's a cool person and you introduce them. It really doesn't matter as long as you're doing something nice for someone else.

    And what happens is over time, people think of you fondly, and that's what you want in your career. You want people to think, hey, I know that guy or girl, he's a nice person. He's trying to help me. And they will naturally want to help you. And when there's a whole bunch of people out there in the world that are your advocates or that think of you as if you have done something to help their career or whatever it is, it comes back around.

    It just does. And that's not necessarily why you would wanna do that, but it's a nice benefit. I mean, you should do nice things for other people just because it's a nice thing to do, but it also is incredibly helpful to your career.

    [00:28:57] Mosah: That's great advice. So for some folks who might be hesitant to make that initial outreach or to in some ways, and in a positive sense, leverage their network, how should someone get over the fear of rejection for making that cold outreach or that initial point of contact?

    [00:29:14] Brian: So it's kind of like, uh, if you want to be a politician, you have to knock on doors. And my wife ran for office and I had to go out and knock on doors. And I remember the first time I did it, I was like, oh, I don't know if I wanna do this. And you're nervewracking. And then you just do it and it's nerve wracking and you feel like you're intruding and blah, blah, blah.

    But then after a while you get used to it, it's the same thing with networking. You have to be okay. You just have to get over the fact that people might ghost to you, you might run into people who don't wanna be bothered. Fine, but in your whole life, what other than your family, your career is probably at the top of the list of most important things. So if you're gonna stick your neck out, it's for that, that you should do it.

    And if you spam a hundred people, I tell people to expect a 1% response rate, because that's basically any sales person, if they get a 1% response rate, that's like industry average. So you're just selling yourself. Right? In reality, it's usually more like 10 to 15%.

    [00:30:24] Mosah: Let's talk a little bit about market value in law firms. It's certainly about. Where you went to law school and the, and the firm that you're landing at often in the market in which that that office is located, whether it be a nalp directory, those things are readily available later in one's career.

    Particularly if you're an attorney, it becomes in large part about the size of your portable book and your economic value to the firm for folks, both in the legal world and outside of it more so in business or nonprofit, when it comes to market value and compensation, how do you suggest someone go about evaluating it and negotiating their compensation when starting a new job at any level in their career?

    [00:30:06] Brian: That's a hard one. Evaluating it is easier. Talk to people. I mean, it's again, an easy way to network. If you email people that have similar jobs at different businesses, ask for advice. I mean, you literally tell 'em, hey, I'm interviewing for a position that's almost exactly like yours at a different company, would you gimme some advice I'm trying to negotiate comp? Yes, they might not respond, but if they do, you're gonna get some really good information. So I mean, research, research, research on the comp front. Now the negotiation I have found some of the best employees I have are the ones who were kind of tough negotiators when you hire them.

    And as somebody hiring people, I actually think more highly of people who stand up for themselves and their comp, as long as they do it in a respectful fashion. It's not easy. And a lot of people's personalities in particular, you know, they get nervous about confrontation, but it really shows your employer that you have the skills to be able to handle a difficult conversation.

    You know, you gotta do it. That's the bottom line. I mean, otherwise you're gonna get a job and you're gonna be unhappy with the job right away, cuz you're, you know, not fully satisfied with the salary.

    [00:32:23] Mosah: So you have a section in your book on how to make your resume more persuasive. And I know that that advice is, is in particular focused on lawyers and young lawyers. There are many different types of resume styles, formats, and ask anyone and they'll give you a million different views on how you should write any one particular segment of a resume type. Applicant tracking systems and level.

    Those things all play a role, but generally, how do you advise job seekers to make a resume more persuasive? And can you share some advice for our listeners generally focusing specifically on that ability to persuade a reader.

    [00:33:03] Brian: Yeah. So this is actually a perfect question for your audience, because what I'm gonna tell you is not just for law students.

    The number one, and honestly is probably not even just for lawyers, the number one mistake that I see people make on resumes and everyone, I mean every single resume I get does this. Under the job all it does is describe what they did at the job. The subset I researched this and wrote this memo, argued this in court, and then they don't say the most important part, which is received excellent reviews from everyone with whom I worked.

    So when I'm looking at a resume, first of all, people know what lawyers do. So if you say, you know, in-house contracting council for a company, you don't need six bullet points talking about the different contracting things you do. I mean, sure you should have one bullet. Basically my structure on prior jobs is the first bullet point should talk highly about the place you worked, because if you brag about the place you worked, you're bragging about yourself because you worked there.

    So, you know, even if you work for Google in house and everybody knows what Google is, you say in the first bullet work for the top privacy officer at Google, right? Or whatever it is that you can say about the job that makes it look. And then the second bullet is all the, here's what I did, blah, blah, blah, boring.

    And then the, you know, the third bullet is received excellent reviews from everyone with whom I worked, unless you didn’t. And then the, the last one is why you left. Anything to tell them, you know, ideally you say voluntarily left to go pursue blah, blah, blah. Right? And now when I see that job, I'm like a.I know what it is and I know why it's important b. I know what you did, c. I know that they'd liked you, which is the most important piece of information you can give a future employer is that prior employers liked working with you, and I know why you left.

    [00:35:08] Mosah: That's great insight, you know, and I look at hundreds of resumes a year and work on a decent subset of those in partnership with others, either the client or someone who I'm working with and some of the most significant advice we give to our clients on this topic is to follow the common acronym of the star methodology around resumes, which is situation, task action. And to your point, most often, those three are already obvious based on position, title and industry. Is the result? What happened? What actually came out. And so we've, we've put our own sort of brand on that by focusing on rstar, which is just simply moving the result to the front.

    And that's actually a technique we work with our clients in helping and prepare for interviews is anyone can be assigned something, anyone can start to try to make progress towards something, but it's all about the result that was achieved during that endeavor. And so combining that with your advice, I think, you know, the more persuasive you can make your resume, not only will the interview be more likely, but it'll also be better supported and easier.

    [00:36:16] Mosah: Brian, there's a misconception today and we get this all the time when a client comes to us, they want to know how quickly we can help them find their next job. And depending on where they are in their job search and how their materials are shaping up, what their level of focus is and the breadth of the potential search, the level of position, all those things factor into our guesstimate as to how long it might take for that person to secure their next.

    Quite honestly, everyone wants to find that next perfect role as quickly as possible. So can you give some insight in for our listeners into what it really takes to find and execute on the next role in one's career, if they're moving upward or moving towards greater levels of compensation and satisfaction?

    [00:36:55] Brian: So patience is one of the biggest problems I see with job seekers, especially with more senior job seekers because being unemployed is uncomfortable. Or being in a job where, you know, you want another job, it's also uncomfortable. So, you know, I think you need to be realistic. I think at the end of the day, you know, hustle, hustle, hustle obviously apply, apply, apply, but then be smart about it.

    Don't just take the first thing that comes along. Because that is almost always the worst outcome where you take a job, you switch jobs and then two months in or three months in you're miserable. Now you have to sort of stick it out for a little while. So your resume doesn't look weird, jumping around.

    So I think it's gonna be a very specific to the person, question. I talk about the funnel approach, where you sort of say, okay, I can pay my mortgage for six months. I just make that up. So maybe the first two months, I'm really gonna just focus on, you know, the ideal jobs for me, whatever those are. And then if I'm not getting anywhere in month, three and four, I'm gonna open the funnel a little bit and maybe, you know, go to some jobs that might not be my dream job, but are still pretty good or a step forward in my career.

    And then the sort of like five, six month, 4, 5, 6 month is you know, uh, oh, I need something here. And of course that's gonna be different for everybody else, but essentially starting, you know, maybe more narrow, more tailored to what you want and then opening that funnel as need arises.

    [00:38:40] Mosah: Brian, when there's a job seeker looking for their next opportunity, how can someone help differentiate themselves amongst the field as a candidate?

    [00:38:48] Brian: So I've had some interesting life experiences starting companies, and that has taught me that sometimes just having an interesting story, an interesting background, something that happened to you.

    Maybe it's you were a division one athlete, maybe it's you grew up in an interesting place, whatever it is. In my case, I have pretty good academic credentials and, uh, you know, have hustled a lot to get where I am, but a lot of people and a lot of clients came about because I invented a keyboard for lawyers, right?

    It's not logical. It's an interesting thing about me. And so that means people are more apt to want to talk to me, ask me questions about that. They're gonna remember me, you know, maybe they'll call me Mr. Keyboard, but it doesn't have to necessarily be in your field, but there are tons of studies that have shown that having an interesting story that you can tell about yourself, 60 seconds, two minutes, will be remembered way more than where you went to law school, what your academic credentials are, what your, you know, professional credentials are.

    [00:39:56] Mosah: Brian going about a job search can be a, an emotional experience. It can be a time consuming experience. Um, working with recruiters is one avenue that we often hear from clients that, that they're endeavoring to work with a recruiter. Some have come to us after working with career coaches. then we, we obviously sort of fill a different need.

    What advice would you give to those engaging in a job search or contemplating a job search as far as working with third parties or professional advisors?

    [00:40:28] Brian: I mean, if you can afford it, it's absolutely going to be worth it in my experience. And I say that as someone who currently pays a coach, in my case, it's a client development person who reached out to me and was like, I coach lawyers on how to get clients.

    And what I've found is it's not just the advice. The advice is great. And there are things I don't think about, but it's also the accountability. So when you have a meeting set up every week or every month, that meeting becomes a deadline for the things that you are working on or need to work on. And that has been really helpful to me.

    So like when I know I'm gonna meet with my coach and he told me I should do these five things, oftentimes I do those five things the week before I meet with him, because I'm afraid I don't wanna show up and have not done my homework. And so there's kind of a co-benefit of not just getting the advice, but also having someone else that can hold you accountable for the task that you need to take.

    [00:41:27] Mosah: That's tremendous. And then as far as the professional advice and areas of expertise beyond sort of that accountability, how do you go about finding the right person or the right organization to support you in that search?

    [00:41:40] Brian: Well, I'm assuming they should, you know, email you first, but if you're busy, I mean, there are a lot of them out there. The Legal Mentor Network is compiling a list that would obviously be more focused on the sort of younger lawyers, but there are tons of resources out there. LinkedIn is an amazing tool. I mean, you could literally search coach, career coach on LinkedIn and find a lot of them or ask around, ask other people.

    You'd be surprised at how many people actually use those services. They often don't talk about it until you ask them about it, but I don't know of a sort of repository or, or easy place to go find all the coaches out there in rankings. Maybe there is one, but it's absolutely worth the time to invest in your own personal knowledge and personal wellbeing. It's no different than going to get an education.

    [00:42:33] Mosah: If you had to give an executive level or partner level or GC level, job seeker, a single bit of advice today, what would you give?

    [00:42:44] Brian: Keep at it. I mean, work hard. That's really all it is. Give yourself as many opportunities as you possibly can. You can always say no to a job. So you just gotta keep at it. Keep throwing stuff at the wall until something sticks.

    [00:43:02] Mosah: So Brian, if some of our listeners wanna get ahold of you or prospective clients says, wow, I really wanted to talk to Brian. How can they best get ahold of you?

    [00:43:09] Brian: Emailing me at Perkins is the best. My Perkins account as you can imagine, law firm's love to make our emails easily available. So you can just Google Brian Potts or it's bpotts@perkinscoie.com

    And as I said, I always take a meeting. That's one of my things. So anybody out there you want more advice? You just want to talk to me about how amazing Louisville basketball is, if you email me, I will meet with you.

    [00:43:40] Mosah: Brian on the episode, we always give a contribution in honor of the guest’s participation. We've selected three national nonprofits that we support on the show. We think that limiting it to three allows us to make a more significant impact and focused dollar contribution. So we've selected the American Cancer Society, Feed America, and the ASPCA, any preference among those three, where we make the contribution honor of this episode?

    [00:44:06] Brian: They're all great organizations, but I'll go with feed America. It's hard not to wanna feed America.

    [00:44:12] Mosah: Great. Thanks so much, Brian. And thanks again for being on the show. We know our listeners will benefit from your insights and wisdom.

    Thanks so much.

    [00:44:19] Brian: Yeah, thank you it's been great.

    [00:44:21] Richard: Thank you for joining us on Hiring Insights. Remember, you can learn more about Top Talent Advocates and listen to other episodes by visiting toptalentadvocates.com and click on the Podcast link.

    You can also email us at tta@toptalentadvocates.com

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